In a democratic system everyone has the right to protest. Rallies, marches, sit-ins and blockades are an integral part of an open and vibrant public space. Demonstrations give people an opportunity to air grievances and to publicly signal the depth of their support. And they furnish the media with potent images of dissent.
The ongoing rally of the People’s Alliance for (Sufficiency) Democracy (PASD) in Bangkok demonstrates the power of this form of political protest. In the face of determined dissent the Samak government has been forced into some significant backdowns. Hasty plans to amend the 2007 constitution have been referred to a parliamentary committee. And the government seems to be rushing to reposition itself on the Preah Vihear world heritage listing, an issue that has come from nowhere largely on the strength of the PA(S)D’s street campaign. The protests also provided an energising backdrop to a vigorous no-confidence debate in parliament, during which the opposition was said to have “chopped up” Samak and his cabinet colleagues. On the back of the PA(S)D protests the media have been feasting on the morsels.
Some of the key checks and balances of a democratic system appear to be working.
So will the PA(S)D go home, satisfied with a job well done? They have embarrassed the government and forced backdowns on key items in their list of demands. Their dissenting cause has received massive publicity. There can be little doubt that the public is well aware of the of the failings of Samak and his colleagues.
But I strongly suspect that the PA(S)D doesn’t want to go home (though court orders and a lack of mass support may force them to). They don’t want to leave the streets because they are not really interested in the specific issues that they have used to attack the government. These issues are just convenient tools. Government backdowns mean nothing because the PA(S)D has a much more ambitious agenda.
Their agenda is to bring the elected government down. Their agenda is to campaign for a perverted form of democracy-“sufficiency democracy”-in which representation is achieved by appointment. Their agenda is to impose a minority viewpoint on Thailand’s political future.
Is this part of the tradition of democratic protest? I don’t think so.
88 responses so far ↓
1 Reg Varney // Jul 7, 2008 at 11:43 am
I did post this article (appended below) on a different part of NM a few days ago, but think it deserves being incorporated here.
Clearly the forces behind PAD want a “new politics” that is more than getting rid of the “Thaksin regime.” They want to embed a form of “democracy” in Thailand that has its origins in Sarit’s time, when he used the word “prachathipatai” to define rule that was despotic and anything but democratic. Of course, there were appointed mebers of the assembly from the outset, but the debate was always over who got to appoint them. By the time Sarit came along and used the monarchy for his own legitimacy, the People’s Party was done and Pridi long in exile, so the conservative royalists of the time felt that they could take up this call and they propagandised it as a form of Thai-style democracy. Every time there is a debate about “revising” politics, appointed members comes back as does the suggestion of an appointed PM. PAD is just the tool of this kind of conservative politics.
The Nation (believe it or not!)
BETWEEN THE LINES
New politics but idea is not so fresh
Published on Jul 3, 2008
The People’s Alliance for Democracy has been flying kites to test the winds, suggesting “new politics” to replace electoral/representative democracy as it believes it is fighting a losing battle to get rid of corrupt politicians.
The inner circle of the street protesters’ group is seriously discussing its ultimate goal and blueprint for a new political scene. No clear ideology or platform has emerged so far.
To many of them, electoral democracy is not the answer to removing corrupt politicians from power. If they managed to force the government of Samak Sundaravej, whom they regard as former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra’s proxy, to step down and call a new election, the same political faces would win at the polls again, perhaps in higher numbers than before.
Even during the military regime, the People Power Party was able to defeat many other parties in favour with the junta. There’s little doubt about how many members the party would get in the next election to be held while it is in power.
PAD coordinator Suriyasai Katasila came up with the idea of new politics, apparently not his own, suggesting a mixed model to bring lawmakers into parliament. The proportion between elected MPs and selected MPs should be 30:70, he said.
It is not a completely new idea - such a system is currently being run in the Senate where half the 150 members come from elections and the other half are selected by a judge-led panel. Thailand has two kinds of senator: one has a people’s mandate from elections and the other represents the elite.
The idea of new politics has not yet come into wide public discussion but political activists and PAD critics who have been closely following the street protests said the idea of new politics would be a great leap backwards from democracy.
The groups who pushed Suriyasai to float the idea represent the elite. They actually want aristocracy, rather than democracy, to run the country. Like the current Senate, the elite, mostly in the bureaucracy and judicial areas, hope to preserve the right to pick their associates to control politics.
The military coup in September 2006 allowed the elite to swallow half the Senate but failed to take any bite in the Lower House. PAD’s second round of battle is another attempt to take a big stake. Let’s see - perhaps the second bite will be too big to chew.
2 Sidh S. // Jul 7, 2008 at 4:33 pm
If the PAD is going down that less democratic path, it seemed like a missed opportunity. They have done much in this new Thai phenomena of civic ultra-assertiveness and should continue to fight for, as they have in past occasions, against corruption, for political accountability, checks-and-balances…etc… They should especially advocate for the rule of law and set a good example by following the court’s order.
Is this a fear that, post-Thaksin (if the courts “do their job”), they’ll be no defining figure that generate so much emotion and political activism!? Hence the need to advocate elite control ’sufficiency’ democracy - as Andrew terms it - which interestingly mirrors the ’sufficiency’ rural constitution he blogged on recently (which is, at the end of the day, politics controlled by the capitalist-gangster elite). On that note, maybe PAD should take this new civic-assertiveness to the rural areas. If the country eventually gets a strong farmers’ political representation in parliament, even a truly, grass-roots farmer political party - that could be a truly new milestone in Thai democracy.
3 Reg Varney // Jul 7, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Sidh: you do a another injustice to many people who have struggled for years to participate. As Nidhi has pointed out about a month ago, Bangkok’s streets have long been filled by people asserting a right to participate. You apparently ignore years of AOP and other farmers organisations. Why are those struggles not worth thinking about as forms of “civic assertiveness?”
And, when wasn’t PAD going down the less democratic path? My feeling is that you need to go back to its first iteration, before it was hijacked by Chamlong and Sondhi.
4 Sidh S. // Jul 7, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Ofcourse they are Reg Varney, no debates there. I can see that you equate failing to mention with injustice! To each, their charming eccentricities! Besides if you actually read Andrew’s blog, it’s on the PAD and not on other groups - so I am not completely sure why you raised those points considering you are well aware of their inherent differences. I added the suffix “ultra” to differentiate PAD - as Andrew added the “(S)”. For me it is an broad reflection of Thailand’s overall “Sufficient” (in Andrew’s twist, not the original) Democracy that middle-class Bangkokian protesters can bring down governments, poor rural protestors are totally ignored (such the many years of the Assembly of the Poor you mentioned), while Southern ones get massacred.
I actually find the PAD phenomenon and the parallel ‘Tulakarnphiwat’ quite exciting. I only hope that it is not short-lived - being only inspired by the one-man-phenomena of PMThaksin - only to lose traction and resume business-as-usual when he is dealt with. If the rule of law starts applying robustly to abusers higher up the socio-economic ladder - it is an excellent start (or re-start - as we had that promising period after the passage and early implementation of the 1997 Constitution). Fingers-crossed the new culture also becomes a new tradition.
5 Reg Varney // Jul 7, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Sidh: I was responding to: “They have done much in this new Thai phenomena of civic ultra-assertiveness…”. My point is that they were on a well-worn path. The injustice I refer to is that you ignore all of the others who have been shot, beaten etc. Sort of in concert with your willingness to only want justice for Thaksin and his mob and not those responsible for smashing earlier attempts at “civic ultra-assertiveness.” Don’t recall many of the PADites getting this treatment. But maybe you just display your own eccentricity.
Frankly, I find it eccentric that you consider PAD + Tulakarnphiwat is exciting and positive (not your word). Nothing wrong with the rule of law, but plenty wrong with PAD, which is in danger of becoming ultra-right wing. The two together bring to mind earlier examples of parties that controlled the courts to defeat their enemies. Even the Nation has recently managed to recognise this potential threat.
6 Cham Ritual Arts, Opportunist Protesters, and Rice Porn « deathpower // Jul 8, 2008 at 1:13 am
[...] Andrew Walker over at New Mandala has a good take on the public protests by the PAD (People’s Alliance for Democracy) in Bangkok lately. These protests have largely revolved around the nationalist complaint that the recognition of Cambodia’s historic and legal claim to Preah Vihea temple amounts to the abdication of Thai territory and sovreignty. It’s total b.s., of course, as even Minister of Foreign Affairs Noppadon - who originally stood by the agreement and correctly argued that no territory nor sovreignty was lost - has now capitulated and simply started blaming the last government. Andrew writes: But I strongly suspect that the PA(S)D doesn’t want to go home (though court orders and a lack of mass support may force them to). They don’t want to leave the streets because they are not really interested in the specific issues that they have used to attack the government. These issues are just convenient tools. Government backdowns mean nothing because the PA(S)D has a much more ambitious agenda. [...]
7 Kuson // Jul 8, 2008 at 3:15 am
Let me play Devil’s Advocate - as an educated Thai.
In Defense of PAD: “Perverted form of democracy” is a result of “Everyone Who Knows Whats Going On In Thai Democracy” to find a way to Rid Thaksin from wasting so much quality time from Thai people’s lives, from having to talk day after day in family outings just about this unscrupulous character. The same way corrupt, the most corrupt, the most hideous politicians still stay in power despite being bad. You guys in Australia - imagine if you had Mr. Hitler as a prime minister because 70% of the population are voting him- and you grumble your golden years day in and day out.
Why do these bad characters STILL exist in the Thai landscape, where people are generally very kind at heart? The rural Thailand, vast 60-70% of the population who fall prey - day after day, year after year, decade after decade. I can predict another decade OR EVEN MY LIFETIME -or so before a rurul poor Thai is to know he is not supposed to sell his vote!
I’m no expert in democracy but understanding of its true fundaments - the Best Lousiest form of government in general, the Worst Form of Government for a country “with Gullibles and a Thaksin that Turns Tricks”.
That is why I think another form of government - whilst preserving ‘representation’ and a strong free press which is important in democracy — is worth looking at; How to get the Best Minds to Govern the country, and to prevent -I’m sorry to say- the Uneducated Gullible from bringing back the Freaks to Govern the Country.
There you go my Nelson Mandela oops Mandala friends
Ok - back to the ‘Ideal Form of Government’ - everybody votes and each count the same; I would prefer if this is the case — if and only if they do according to my ingenious Kuson Maneuver Proposal: the Uneducated Gullibles (and everyone alike) get to swear, before they cast their ballot, that “They Will Not Vote To The Party That Sell Votes”. This way, voters, however gullible, get best of both worlds- the money they get from the transaction and the vote they give to the good guys. Perhaps also a Best Practices pamphlet, the country should strategize to vote mainly 2 political parties in, because Coalition Governments in my experience truly su*k and get nothing done; 2 parties is a good check and balance.
I dunno. Maybe I’m just mumbling.
8 Sidh S. // Jul 8, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Reg, again note my suffix “ultra-” as differentiation for why I did not lump PAD with other civic-assertiveness movements (on which we agree - no need for further debates).
For you, I will admit to another “injustice” in not mentioning Jakrapob’s and Dr.Weng’s DADD’s riot in front of PMPrem’s resident that resulted in injuries mainly to the security forces (200+ police as I recall Thairath reporting) which is also unprecedented. This is further evidence for stressing my differentiation point and how a lot of this is already a significant development from Black May 16 years ago when mainly middle-class, Bangkok-based protestors got massacred by the security forces.
While PAD may be in danger of becoming right-wing (quite problematic in the Thai context, really), I don’t have that fear for Tulakarnphiwat as the bribes inevitably get raised from 2 million to 10s, 100s or even billions (not to mention pressure from the PPP government - for the stakes are very high here - unfreezing 73 billion baht). A major institution in Thailand’s progress towards a rule of law culture will face another round of severe pressure/test. The country’s future will be determined there - not by the PAD - whether Thailand gets a more robust rule of law as a fundamental base for its democratic progress or is it back to the Wild, Wild, West.
While I don’t agree with all of Kuson’s points, it seem to illustrate the Bangkok, middle-class frustrations - and solutions (or just untying of societal knots) is in the offing when they can meet and be concilliated/mitigated with the rural (and urban) poor’s frustrations (bought up by Andrew, Jonfernquest etc.). An ideal scenario (my turn to mumble) is for PAD to also start talking to Assembly of the Poor and others and turn this into a more inclusive, Thailand-wide movement that bridges socio-economic divides…
9 Srithanonchai // Jul 8, 2008 at 4:05 pm
I doubt that the PAD’s approach is covered by the right of assembly. It is not enough to merely adopt their view by hailing the effectiveness of protests in a democracy. Rather one should ask what sort of protest forms are democratically allowed by reference to the freedom of assembly. For making PAD’s opinion heard, you only need a protest march of a few hours. Moreover, they very openly declared that making their voices heard was not at all the main purpose of their activity. Rather, they expressly aimed for toppling this government and assuming power. In undoubtedly democratic countries, such as Australia, the US, the UK, or Germany, I am quite sure that the governments would have dissolved such as protest rally.
10 karmablues // Jul 8, 2008 at 9:50 pm
re #9
In undoubtedly democratic countries, such as Australia, the US, the UK, or Germany, I am quite sure that the governments would have dissolved such as protest rally.
Yes, but is Thailand an “undoubtedly democratic country”?
one should ask what sort of protest forms are democratically allowed by reference to the freedom of assembly.
Instead, I think one should ask what sort of protest forms are necessary in Thailand by reference to the authoritarian and oppressive nature of the TRT/PPP government
11 kuson // Jul 9, 2008 at 1:39 am
karmablues — you’re spot on! PAD is mainly a machine to rid the humanity-corrupting Thaksin Era.
I must admit, Its other good by-effects are to get so many people to involved in politics as Auditors and assume the role as True-Owners of Thailand - whether it be academics (like this Mandela Mob), University Students, to professional class persons, to patriotic housewives, etc. Never before has it made a Thai come out to defend for the country in true spirit.
As for my view, I think PAD is trying to prevent Thaksin from resurrection — TRT becomes PPP and now into another party some other form of Ghost wanting to continue to haunt Thailand (Thailand Pet Shop Boys sings: “What have I done to Deserve This?”) . As karmablues is probably implying, the current government is illegitimate anyway if it came to power by buying votes, supported by much of the Uneducated Gullible (who I consider victims) and the buyable Political Pr*st*tutes - excuse my language. Therefore such a kind of PAD ‘mob’ is in a different context in comparison to a normal protest in a fully 1st world, democratic country.
PAD does look Right side of the parliament (better than wrong side
), but IMHO, one of the very reason for its existence is for the “Love of Thailand” - because if you don’t love Thailand, then there’s someone who will happily sell out your country for a handsome profit. And because to “Love one’s King and Country” is something that everyone can understand - whether you’re uneducated or not. If PAD markets itself in other ways (academics trying to explain fiscal policy, corruption tactics, best practice politics ,etc), they will not be able to explain to the common Thai.
12 kuson // Jul 9, 2008 at 1:41 am
explain in the last sentence of my post above means “explain easily in layman terms”
13 Bob // Jul 9, 2008 at 2:12 am
Instead, I think one should ask what sort of protest forms are necessary in Thailand by reference to the authoritarian and oppressive nature of the TRT/PPP government
You mean a protest in the form of a coup?
Ends justify the means, I see.
14 kuson // Jul 9, 2008 at 3:53 am
Ref #13[I let karmablue answer that himself], but as someone living in Thailand, I can’t help to respond that a few years ago that would have been DEFINITELY been the case — Thais will hope some power above (Police, Army or someone in authority) will “Intervene” and let them “Right the Wrongs”. Perhaps a coup!
However—Now I think there is a glimmer of light that a non-soldier Thai can ‘right things wrong’. Its definitely refreshing to see people coming to the streets, out of their own will and take a decision on their standpoint (its easy because its a Moral Standpoint, not political standpoint). It shows that “We’re Not Sheep”.
I think as long as Thai begin to feel more ownership in their country — that Thailand is a matter of fact theirs, there will be more participation and the chance of getting a Morally Correct government the future is higher.
When you say “Coup” — it is interesting; There are rumours/theories that the ‘foxy’ Thaksin troup will stage a own coup of their own government in order to save the cornered Thaksin. On the other hand, there may be a ‘Whiter’ Coup that sees TRT turn to PPP and will eventually turn to another permutation — wasting more of the country’s time and resources- and decide to give a lending hand to prevent the vicious cycle to happen.
I really hope that the Coup option doesn’t happen, and that we can right our wrong our own way; I hope we can go the way of “Tom Yum”- initially not really knowing where we’re going - Sweet, Salty, Chilli or Sweet– and at the end, working out into a very good combination with Flying Colors!
15 Sidh S. // Jul 9, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Kuson, yes, I agree with PAD’s merits (the most effective counterbalance to TRT/PPP gangster mobs - and the political activism is certainly refreshing in the traditionally passive society) - and understand their royalist/nationalist narrative (effective communication as you say) but recently their leadership has been advocating democratically questionable political change (e.g. the 30% elected and 70% selected MP). I personally don’t take it seriously - as it is not possible without, exactly what you fear, a coup. In fact, it is another thing I don’t agree with PAD, calling on the armed forces to (again) take sides against the government. See:
“Army leader criticises the PAD, vows to stay neutral”
http://www.bangkokpost.net/080708_News/08Jul2008_news06.php
But it does show that GenSonthi’s (and assuming also PMSurayud’s) decision to hand the army chief position to GenAnupong rather than GenSaprang is a carefully calculated decision. I think GenAnupong’s general cool is a blessing in this very hot political climate…
16 karmablues // Jul 10, 2008 at 4:10 am
Re #13
I gave my support for the Sept 2006 coup.
I find it impossible to place my trust on a government that is willing to support the murder of more than 2500 of its own citizens just for a marketing stunt . If they can go as far as that, then it is not difficult to imagine them capable of much worst once they manage to consolidate even more power, tighten up media control, and subvert further the already weakened checks and balances. They had already gone far down the authoritarian path with no indication (nor would there be any incentive) of reversing course.
If the government kills its own citizens extrajudically, then let it be removed by extrajudicial/ extraconstitutional means if that be the only avenue available. Such illegitimate government which is manifestly lacking even the most basic morals must be stopped from amassing further power which would not only enable but surely encourage it to commit greater abuses on its own citizens due to impunity.
I would agree with Kuson that the lastest developments in Thailand shows a glimmer of light, especially in that we will hopefully not need a coup to halt government abuse and make it more accountable for its actions (which by the way, the PPP government had already announced that the second phase of war on drugs is in the pipelines, with Chalerm having advertised an expected 3000 - 4000 body count, while PM Samak said “I will not set a target for how many people should die”.)
As for the PAD, while I have my reservations for the group’s leaders due to some of their extreme views I have heard, I fully admire the PAD protesters who turn out in the tens of thousands to join the protests. To have the courage to act on their moral convictions and to endure the difficulties (days on end out in the burning sunshine, heavy rain, sitting/sleeping on hard cement surfaces for extended periods, etc) and not to mention the psychological tension which must have often arisen due to the fear from violence breaking out on various occasions.
So despite various PAD viewpoints I don’t agree with, I still wholeheartedly give them my full support. Perhaps some of that support is out of guilt since I am the lazy one who is not yet ready to make the real sacrifices, and just hoping to have the free ride to a better and more accountable government for our country.
17 Srithanonchai // Jul 10, 2008 at 6:52 pm
#10 and 16: All right, Thailand has no acceptable political institutional stuctures, thus nobody has to respect any rules (certainly not any electoral votes), and everybody noisy enough can try to overthrow the government and assume power via a coup. Thus let us establish a true pluralistic democracy in Thailand in which collectively binding decisions are reached via shouting matches on the royal plaza. A few tanks on the sides of some of such self-appointed groups might spice up events a bit. What do we need a government for, anyway?
18 kuson // Jul 10, 2008 at 8:37 pm
#17
IMHO the reason for the mess in the first place is the TRT/PPP does not respect the rules and pretend to respect the rules one that our King predicted very early on when he talked about “Double Standards”. When Thaksin in government in the past, he shifts the rules around for which in business this is his company’s main advantages. Now he’s in deep s**t and he’s trying to mend the Constitution. Do you see what I mean?
My brother and I used to fight when we were young. I remember my Dad hated us fighting and just came by and smacked us both. Now that we’re older, I feel guilty because I’m the one wrong and saw the flaw in my Dad’s logic of spanking us both, instead of finding the wrong party and then Punishing that party instead.
I hope you (and all the Non-Thais who come with a superior ‘1st World Democratic’ Prejudice where 80% of your population alreadyhave the factors that make Democracy works) can try to untangle the very reason why things happen the way they do in the first place. We in Thailand want Fair Elections, where the people are Well Informed, and Understand the downfalls of Populist Policies - i.e. vote reasonably. We’ve been trying for SO long, perhaps in some extreme ways we do feel we should ditch it or modify it to something that works for our situation ( a benevolent dictator some inner child says? hehehe). Ok now I’m blabbering.
I just how you can help at least appreciate what PAD are trying to do — to at least take out the Thaksin Self Interested Corruption System (TSICS), and let Thailand have a chance to restart politically, and do not wind up into TSICS again.
I’ve been in one of the protests and want to join in again. When you go there (at least the one i’ve been), I see alot of housewives, professionals also bringing in the elderly and the young children to join the event. I think its a once-in-a-lifetime thing to do as even a Tourist, as there’s free concert, water, and sometimes food, and quite a jovial environment where people smile at each other. It gives a glimpse — and contrast — to the normal City Life in Bangkok, where people only mind their own business and live in walled enclaves (well, in the protection of high walls) — and that’s the next thing to tackle after taking out TSICS.
19 Bob // Jul 10, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Ah, there we have it. Two wrongs makes a right, according to karmablues.
karmablues would support stealing from a thief, even though that would mean he was a thief as well.
20 karmablues // Jul 10, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Re #19
Thanks for the thief analogy. Let me share with you my version of the thief story:
Thief steals ( Wrong number 1 ). Karmablues followed the rules and went to Police to lodge complaint. Police accepted complaint but since Police was in same criminal synidicate as Thief, Police dragged feet with the investigations endlessly. Therefore, though Thief should have been taken to Court and sentenced to jail, Thief remains free.
Thief then steals again, and again, and again. And repeatedly, Police drag feet on investigations. Not only that, but Thief-Police criminal syndicate decided also to go on killing spree of 2500 fellow citizens because they viewed them as scum. So Karmablues got fed up and did not follow rule anymore. Karmablues goes to Military to ask for help. Military catches Thief and confiscated the stolen property (which can be viewed as “stealing” since it’s the job of the Police and Court under the law, so ok Wrong number 2 ) .
So does Wrong number 1 and Wrong number 2 make a right?
You say no. I will agree. But for a different reason.
The reason it did not make a right is that after Wrong number 2, Thief leaves country, continues luxurious lifestyle, purchases Premier League football club, and continues with his mischiefs, etc. although Thief should have gone to jail if Police had in the first place done its job as required by law (and perhaps 2500 lives could have been saved as well).
Yes, so two wrongs really did not make a right.
21 kuson // Jul 10, 2008 at 10:50 pm
#19,
I think it is too simplistic to bring a ’superior ‘1st World Democratic Prejudice’ view, scoff at the people who seemingly are seemingly undemocratic and label them as the ‘bad guys, bad losers’. Its very easy if you’re the 3rd party. That is, no one stole anything from you.
BUT If you’re the party been stolen from — if you’re the 1st Party–if you’re the Thai –however rich or poor, who has lived through day after day of corruption — haven been stolen your time, your opportunity, your dignity (if Thaksin or Chalerm represents the Royal Thai Government, I really do not know where to put my face), IMHO it would not be stealing from a thief. It would be merely bringing justice to the thief. PAD only had to do this because 1. The Police are under the Government 2. The Army would be a Coup –and they don’t do a good job in government anyway.
So all in all, I do not think it is a thief stealing a thief, but Justice catching up with the Thief.
IMHO.
22 kuson // Jul 10, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Oops… sorry, I forgot to put the tag to stop the boldface from overflowing. Apologies — I wanted to put it after ‘the’ and before ‘Thai’. hehehe
23 Reg Varney // Jul 11, 2008 at 3:35 pm
The kuson debate - if that is the right word - is a rather polite version of what Sonthi, Chamlong and others have been shouting very much more aggressively from the PAD stage. The remarkable nationalism reminiscent of the rightists of the 1970s, the invocation Sarit, the renewed claim to be representing king, country and people, and the demands that the government be overthrown are the logic of proto-fascists. Watching all of this on Sondhi’s TV invokes, for me, feelings of 1974-75. This is not nostalgia, but a real fear for the slippery slope.
24 Sidh S. // Jul 11, 2008 at 4:44 pm
karmablues and kuson, your comments reminded me of the highly articulate anti-Thaksin/TRT mass-emails that did the rounds many years ago. Pro-Thaksinite’s/TRT always countered with “where’s the evidence?”. The court rulings since the jailing of the Election Commission in 2006 (and the multiple cases of this week) has begun to provide vindication for those suspicions/accusations. Not surprisingly, the pro-Thaksinites are now saying “the courts are biased and the cases are politicized” - maybe, just maybe - but don’t forget the evidences are solid (anyone can go back to read the detailed rulings) and much more will be streaming out in the months and years ahead… (unless PMThaksin successfully engineers a military coup that white-washes all cases against him, PPP having failed him in parliament)
25 kuson // Jul 11, 2008 at 7:23 pm
PAD THAI -imho, probably includes from Light Yellow (the Reasoned) to Dark Yellow (the Rightists).
Reg, have you been to one of the protests? When you watched ASTV, do you understand Thai? (just wanting to qualify what you saw and listened to — whether you understood the language or whether you saw people speak angrily in foreign language).
I’ve been to the protests only once (first day they went to government house), and watched ASTV on the internet every now and then. I cannot claim I was watching all 24 hours, but what I see is the leaders shouting every now and then, but for most of the time, it is quite soft education sessions;
I understand those PAD guys have been there for at least a Month, have endured alot of Abuse, alot of Threats (probably life threatening), lots of Rain, Sun, and Uncertainty and perhaps Poked More. It is possible at this stage that they’re quite ‘pis*ed’. I’m quite sure they started out very very polite — the same way you would politely tell me to stop doing something reasonably, but as again and again I unreasonably resist and cause more damage, naturally you’ll be more ‘dramatic’ or angry. So I would understand why they are more ‘Dramatic’.
I think for the Educated (for which I think I am in this group), it is quite easy to educate me and convince me why Thaksinism is not good without being ‘dramatic’. So for this crowd, we’re just waiting for the courts to decide, not really needing much angry speech.
But there is another group, for which this more Dramatic (rightist, patriotic, etc) version is required. Persuasion for the popular crowd of simple people does not mean going deeply into stories, but going to nationalistic rhetoric — something that is very easy to understand, such as loss of land, making the king not feel well, selling a nation — those are quite easy to grasp and be rhetorical about. Also, if you’ve been there for 30 days and had to retell some story over and over, wouldn’t it be better for more improvement?
All in all, I IMHO, they are trying to keep the PAD movement alive, and show to the ‘bad guys’ that, Alot of Thai People are Awake Now and Watching Over Every Step They Make!” and that “Thai People are Not Sheep!” Thus the dramaticism.
Ta-Wiset (Magic Eyes) is watching!
26 Srithanonchai // Jul 11, 2008 at 7:47 pm
#18 Truly a bizarre perceptional framework. I wonder whether reality still figures in all this. I mean, what can one say if the Samak government is labelled “authoritarian and oppressive.” One more issue: Since the PAD is so much in favor of transparency, do you know whether they have publiziced a list showing who donated what amount of money to finance their crusade?
27 Reg Varney // Jul 11, 2008 at 9:58 pm
kuson: I think the rose coloured glasses probably need to come off. I watch ASTV on TV - satellite - and your account of it doesn’t match what I see.
28 Kuson // Jul 12, 2008 at 2:23 am
#26
Srithanonchai - I think you’re quite right, there are probably some baddies free-riding (or even sponsoring) on the crusade against Thaksinism, and I don’t really know that. However, what I know is that myself and alot of people I know donated some money to pitch in. Lots of traders and merchants also put in “1,000 apples’ (when in the protest in front of the gov house) and ‘free drinking water’ (from Electric Auth of Thailand personnel). I’m quite sure the sources come more from the heart and source more distributed (i.e. Representing the Group, a near democratic ideal). This is why the protest can go on for so long- when PAD is needed, assembly is quite easy via the web or ASTV.
This contrasts very deeply from the hired hands from the “Other side” — who you can see straight away quite barbaric (anyone hired, when they come down the bus, they will come and pull your T-shirt, or throw bags of piss) and more importantly, most likely financed from a very predictable, small source. Its quite clear those people are not the reasoning type, but rather follow some instructions.
** For the current government, I think they are already done for and look forward to the next election- but I suspect Mr. Thaksin has fulfilled his “Return on Investment” in utilizing the current government to do business, and Noppadon did the commando job and will probably live with a Golden spoon up his *** in Prison. Thus they don’t need to be “Oppressive Nor Authoritarian”, they (well at least Noppadon) just need to sell Thailand or if they live abit longer, all they need to fulfill and devote all the time they can to get Thaksin off the hook - “Who cares about Thailand?” [Ok, I admit in this paragraph I don't have evidence, but its speculation-- taken the government does so many politically foolish things - things that Thaksin would never do out in the Open, kind of suggest that he would do it because he has a deadline; ]
#27
Reg, I haven’t seen the ASTV in 7 days now (sheepishly); Perhaps you are right;
For me, as long as Thaksinism goes away — that’s the biggest achievement PAD can do. I trust the PAD leaders much more than Thaksin. I remember Chamlong’s Integrity when he was governor. I remember Dr. Jermsak . I remember Sondhi. (And if Thailand can near a Two-Party Parliament (no more TRT/PPP/etc and no more Coalition Governments) and a large poplulation of smart people helping to audit the government, I’ll be thrilled)
29 karmablues // Jul 12, 2008 at 4:16 pm
karmablues and kuson, your comments reminded me of the highly articulate anti-Thaksin/TRT mass-emails that did the rounds many years ago. Pro-Thaksinite’s/TRT always countered with “where’s the evidence?”.
Sidh, the most disturbing aspect of the “where’s the evidence” mentality is that, behind those lines lies the assertion that: where’s the evidence? you couldn’t possibly uncover or prove anything because the police are totally corrupt, the prosecutors are on the payroll of the politicians, independent bodies are littered with their cronies, and even if a few cases get do find their way to the courts most judges can be bought anyways. So pleaseee don’t claim that you have evidence, it’s impossible!!
Luckily, things are beginning to change, and I agree with your prediction that the “where’s the evidence” defense will quickly morph into “the courts are biased and the cases are politicized.”
And so while the “where’s the evidence” crowd know that the country is being run by one large mafia-led TRT/PPP criminal syndicate (which was also made irrefutable by the fact that it had previously gone on killing spree of 2500 civilians and 78 minority villagers and have admitted to scheming another 3000 - 4000 civilian deaths), they would be quick to point the finger at those who wish to protest that they must adhere strictly to the limits of freedom of assembly. What’s the logic in this? Oh, I suppose if PAD strictly adheres to the limits of freedom of assembly, the mafia gangsters will suddenly follow their example and voluntarily stay within the limits of law? Or is the real purpose to silence the voice of the people so that the mafia-led criminal syndicate can continue to stay above the law? So that, for example, Noppadon’s unlawful and unconstitutional activities (endorsed by Cabinet resolution) which may have also amounted to selling off parts of Thai territory (and here I refer to the parts not covered by the ICJ ruling) can go unchecked?
Well, luckily for Thailand, the voice of the people have been heard and continue to be spoken, and hopefully, the rule of law will prevail.
30 Srithanonchai // Jul 12, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Kuson: I don’t doubt that a number of people donated small sums of money coming from their pure (others would say misguided and immature) political minds. However, according to Suriyasai, the PAD spends one million baht per day. After three weeks, he said that PAD had spent about 21 million, with four million more in reserve, and more expected. Thus, until today, PAD will have spent more than 40 million. It would be good if the PAD could make a detailed account available to the public. Concerning trust in leaders, one should rather trust one’s own judgment than any leaders. Thailand’s leadership culture is part of the problem that you mention, I guess. Finally, you cannot eliminate TRT/PPP, because you will not have any politicians left to run for parliament, except some Democrats. Or you can introduce a proportional election system with national-level party lists, i.e. without candidates being forced to succeed in winning a plurality in their local constituencies first. But this also has its drawbacks…
31 Reg Varney // Jul 13, 2008 at 1:18 am
Kuson: “I trust the PAD leaders much more than Thaksin. I remember Chamlong’s Integrity when he was governor. I remember Dr. Jermsak . I remember Sondhi.”
Thaksin might not deserve trust. But do the others? I leave aside “Jermsak” as he is not a key member of PAD. But what of Chamlong and Sondhi? Chamlong’s role in 1976 and as a mercenary soldier might be neglected in order to trust him. Sondhi as an opportunist and bankrupt might also need to be forgotten, along with the apparent reason for him turning against Thaksin…. Trustworthy? Maybe not. But your view seems to be relativist in that you have a preference for which scoundrels are less worthy than others. Just some thoughts on who we choose to bed down with….
32 Kuson // Jul 14, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Srithanonchai, it seems you’ve indicated clearly we’re on the ‘other side’ of each other’s political chasm (I’m clearly not happy with Thaksin, and perhaps I think you are; Or perhaps you’re not happy with either?). We can agree to disagree, but IMHO, we’re not talking politics anymore when we talk about PPP. We’re talking about Morality here, IMHO they should not exist period. Agreed, there will be no major political party left, only Democrats, but I’m sure that there can be others coming in (esp Andrew Walker’s political map showing North and North East). It doesn’t mean those guys will vote Democrats right away;
Reg, thanks for pointing that out, about the other’s past. Its very important to be informative, and I thank you for that; What it indicates to me is:
1) They can bring down Thaksin, but should not have a political future (i.e. they end when Thaksin goes down) OR
2) They can give it a go at politics. People are watching them closely anyway, and many things are said in the rallies which may or may not be political directions (People have given Thaksin a go already he messed up, so give other people a go).
33 Sidh S. // Jul 14, 2008 at 3:52 pm
With PMThaksin and PMSamak both cornered, they might resort to extreme means. Constitution amendments to white-wash corruption and wrong-doing is back on PMSamak’s agenda - which can potentially precipitate into violence or even a coup (but for which side?). It is more dramatic times ahead between now and court rulings on PMThaksin’s and PMSamak’s cases - and both will do ANYTHING to avoid jail terms (hopefully it is via joining KamnanPoh and Watana Asavahame in tours of foriegn land and not through bloodshed). On these cases and the future of Thai politics and the PPP, Suranand Vejjajiva, formerly of TRT, has written this interesting commentary:
“LET IT BE ‘Make or break’ time for Thai democracy” in:
http://www.bangkokpost.net/110708_News/11Jul2008_news19.php
While I actually hope that PPP evolves into a decent political party that respects and plays by the rules, a huge question there is that without PMThaksin’s popularlity and financial support, would PPP even exist as a political entity?
As Srithanonchai is calling for PAD to reveal their financial accounts (suspecting that PAD is also a nominee of someone else? Or is it Kuson’s observation that they are a mix-bag of groups and individuals sustained by a mutual disdain for PMThaksin/PPP?), this also begs an interesting question to PPP - what is the true extent of PMThaksin’s very obvious (and unconstitutional) financing and running of PPP. Is the very public press’s report and speculations accurate (all these meetings in Hong Kong, Singapore, Beijing, London etc…etc… all those ‘orders’ from above via Jakrapob, Noppodon, Newin, Somsak etc.)?
And who’s to say that a conviction will be the end of PMThaksin. We know what he was capable of from abroad - and he can still pull the strings from inside of a 1st-class jail (if he doesn’t choose to flee). This saga could likely parallel FBI’s fight with the mafia (the same the rule-of-law VS capitalist gangsters storyline)…
34 Reg Varney // Jul 14, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Kuson: Thanks for your reply. I heartily agree.
35 Srithanonchai // Jul 14, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Kuson: “Srithanonchai, it seems you’ve indicated clearly we’re on the ‘other side’ of each other’s political chasm.” > I am on no one’s side since I am an academic, not a political actor. It is precisely one problem of the current situation that some people reduce the whole thing to the friend/enemy dichotomy. So, you are not a democrat, I guess, since you want to deny a group of people who you dislike (PPP) to participate in politics? But, then, “Democracy” has a bad name from your perspective, being dominated in Thailand by what you would call “electrocrats,” and “participation” in the “New Politics” is reserved to the “people sector.” Have you seen the long interview of Sondhi L. in Nation Weekend?
Sidh: “As Srithanonchai is calling for PAD to reveal their financial accounts (suspecting that PAD is also a nominee of someone else?” > Yes, I get the feeling that the protestors are used by other people, in conjunction with the PAD leaders (Sondhi admitted as much in his Interview with Shawn Crispin re the first round in 2006; maybe that’s a factor in SL suppporting “Sakdhina families” having a prominent role in his envisaged “New Politics”). By the way, it is interesting to note that the Samak/Chalerm–Prem/Chamlong conflict seems to be as relevant now as it was in the downfall of Prem in 1988.
36 Reg Varney // Jul 15, 2008 at 1:51 am
Is PAD deliberately trying to incite violence?
Being deliberately provocative here. I watched some recent news reports on PAD activities in the south and NE, chasing after Chalerm and then holding demonstrations in a range of pro-PPP/TRT areas. I am sure that PAD says it is simply exercising its democratic rights (despite their complaints that others shouldn’t be permitted to do this; and of course the anti-PADistas claim the same!), but it does seem as though there is a kind of a plan to incite responses from the seemingly pretty docile pro-PPP/TRT (since the early days of the latest PAD demo in Bkk) . Is there a plan I wonder?
37 Srithanonchai // Jul 15, 2008 at 3:25 pm
There indeed seem to have been a conscious strategy of expanding the protests and sites of confrontation beyond Bangkok. Of course, the anti-PADistas cannot resist the bait. This problem of mutual intolerance already occurred a few times during the PDA protests in 2006. Apparently, little has been learnt since then. A recent comment in Matichon warned of “anarchy” breaking out. Indeed, references to democracy do not only require one’s insistence on rights (real, not imagined), but also a careful consideration of the means of protest activities, including tolerance for activities of the “opposite” side.
38 kuson // Jul 15, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Reg, I’m guessing, and quoting Sidh, it is possible if the puppet government is being cornered, for which the Puppet Government would “do anything” from “Going To Jail and Not Collecting 200″. And perhaps the PAD response now is Tit-for-Tat under the context we do not know.
PAD itself is also a collection of “All of the Above” Against Thaksinism — and as everyone saw in the beginning, from various regions and professionals in the society. I do not think it is an organized structure, a governed body that has control of all its members, and thus the kind of violence that can be incited — which I believe is a “Tit for Tat” rather than inherently violent.
What I’ve seen so far (with my rosy glasses? hehehe) but to what I observed the PAD in Bangkok will not be the violent type because it is known, when violence breaks, chaos reigns, the “3rd hand comes in easily” the PAD will be viewed as bad guys and scape goated and its political agenda down the drain. Also, violence will start Tit-For-Tat moves which is by nature destructive. So despite everything, I do not think it is by intent such.
I’ve seen in more examples than I can say, the Pro-Thaksin persons are very violent by nature- asking for a fight and throwing waterbottles, s**t, stones (witnessed near thammasat and up north). It can be inferred possibly that PAD actions were also defensive — though personally I have not seen yet– PAD going at it in a pro-Thaksin mob.
For someone like Chalerm, even though he deserves much worse as you mentioned, personally I think PAD members should use words, but not throw stuff at him. Personally I would have preferred “every living Thai” to say to him politely “Chalerm, I do not approve of you”. If he hears 100 or 1000 of this daily, I think that itself he cannot stay in the country. Giving him physical abuse, I think, will invite Tit-For-Tat.
Conclusion: So all in all, I’m guessing things are getting hotter because the Government, Pro-Government, like the “Last Few Seconds of a Basketball Match”.
Srithanonchai, thank you for telling me you’re not siding, but viewing as an academic.
#You’re right about “people viewing friend/enemy dichotomy”, though I do not view that way but seeing your posts so far (as I can see) I’m asking your position only; I do not label, but enjoy differences if legal, but do not tolerate the immoral.
About your dichotomy, want to relate this to the PAD and ThaksinSupporter view (again IMHO); PAD hates Thaksin, BUT not the people he’s fooled (the Uneducated Gullible)– PAD are generally thinking these Uneducated Gullible in a charitable way, that they are poor and need to be given better chance; They can be violent at the root cause, but not at the Uneducated Gullibles unless provoked Tit-for-Tat. ThaksinSupporter however, if not purchased, generally believes Thaksin will (or have) give them a better life [ingenius Thaksin marketing to the poor], and will violently support this.
What I am saying here is, the common ThaksinSupporter will have this “Friend/Enemy” dichotomy — much more than a PAD will.
# Ref your words: “So, you are not a democrat, I guess, since you want to deny a group of people who you dislike (PPP) to participate in politics?” As I mentioned way above, I am OK with political parties in politics–especially if they’re all geared towards sustainable development of a country and legal;
Conclusion: I simply view PPP is not a political question, but Moral Question (based on past actions) and should simply not even exist as a Political Party! In this case it would be as if I view Robert Mugabe as not supposed to be a Election Candidate based on all the things he’s done. That’s my view, and I’m waiting for the Courts to decide.
A case like this will never have happened in 1st world (US, UK, Australia, etc.) but prone to happen in places where the Uneducated Gullibles are in mass and ready to be used. And thus another conclusion: Democracy Thailand is not mature enough to view PAD as the bad guys.
IMHO, Thaksinism, is a “Dog and Pony Show” to the World that “Its Democratic!”, but actually a Double-Standard Compliance Fascade of a Monopolistic-Autocratic corrupt family regime that survives on support of large bunch of Uneducated Gullibles. Bringing Thailand to the better is educating these “Uneducated Gullibles” to the “Matrix Truth” about whats happening.
# Lastly, do you have the link to the interview? Would be good to read that thx!
39 Sidh S. // Jul 15, 2008 at 5:33 pm
‘Time to go back to the streets and around the country’ - seems to be PAD’s mantra with PMSamak, as usual, throwing oil to the fire proposing a quick constitution amendment to limit the court’s power. A case of thieves and mafias changing the law to white-wash/legalize their crimes. PMThaksin/PMSamak/TRT/PPP (and whatever shape and form they eventually take up) DESERVES the PAD.
The critical thing here is that everyone “do their jobs” properly. The attorney-general, after turning back many cases from ASC, (surprising many) filed the BIGGEST ONE against PMThaksin one on the conflicts of interests involving ShinCorp and its eventual sale (we all know the current political conflict is largely due to PMThaksin wanting ‘his’ USD2billion unfrozen - and PPP government priorities clearly reflect that). May the cases proceed openly without fear or favor or any interference. Let all the evidences come out to light. IF PMThaksin truly believes in his innocence, then really stay out of politics. His and his nominees’ actions provide ample evidences otherwise…
For Reg Varney’s and Srithanonchai’s concerns, if the security forces “do their jobs”, the protests from both sides can be managed and crashes avoided. They seem to be getting better at it already (but not down South, unfortunately). The army commanders can “do their jobs” and maintain neutrality - no matter who comes knocking at their doors (and resist any reshuffle that re-politicizes the army).
Who knows, if another unprecedented phenomenon happens - and everyone “does their job” properly, this might settle by the years end without violence and/or loss of life. And we’ll have an election where politicians will think three times before considering breaking the law. And that is surely worth a big national celebration. I have my fingers crossed…
40 karmablues // Jul 16, 2008 at 4:21 am
There indeed seem to have been a conscious strategy of expanding the protests and sites of confrontation beyond Bangkok
As long as there is a conscious strategy by the TRT/PPP mafia to evade the rule of law blatantly and shamelessly, one cannot expect anything but for the protests to expand and intensify.
Injustice breeds anger and resentment. And history has proven that the people have always arisen to struggle against injustice.
When the politicians come out with their defiant and shameless messages of, “WE WILL REMAIN ABOVE THE LAW AT ANY COST”, this is the real incitement of violence. In fact, Noppodon’s resignation was a recognition of this. Inaction on his part (i.e. “I AM ABOVE THE CONSTITUTION”) would have provoked widespread dangerous reactions.
So PM Samak’s renewed declaration to amend the constitution, ie. another affirmation of “WE WILL REMAIN ABOVE THE LAW AT ANY COST.” is sure to provoke further expansion and intensification of protest activities.
But it seems as if the government is cornered and will do things despite knowing that their actions will provoke violence, but this is to be expected since their aim has always been to remain above the law at any cost
So things are not looking good. Last I heard is that a group of PPP MPs are preparing to file petitions against the Election Commission, the NCCC, the OAG and the Constitution Tribunal in order to try to cease their operations. Thereby again, adding much fuel for violence.
This lastest move to overpower the Constitutional Court and independent watchdogs shows just what kind of government they’d like to have for Thailand, ie. same as in those days of Thaksin. Such government being best described by James Madison as so: “The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective , may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.”
41 Sidh S. // Jul 16, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Kuson mentions the “uneducated gullibles” - personally, I think they are the least of Thailand’s problems. It is the ‘educated gullibles’ that is most dangerous - as, if they are the influential politicians, they are the ones that manipulate the first group for, on the main, personal financial benefits and, if they are voters, see profit over social justice.
Although it is somewhat accurate as a classification, I am not quite comfortable with the term “uneducated gullibles” having been very fortunate to meet ‘them’ in their rural home contexts and have been in awe of their honest and simple lifestyles close to the land (it seems rather different meeting them in the city as laborers, domestics, vendors etc… and when my own status changed from a student to a Bangkok-based professional…). And having, unfortunately, also met the ‘educated gullibles’, whether local or from the provincial towns, that - on the whole - exploit them. It’s not surprising that we get the politicians that we have - and that is why Tulakarnphiwat is critical to contain the politicians’ excesses and a potentially transformative phenomenon for Thai democracy.
Seeing powerful ‘educated gullibles’ subjected to the rule of law (and fleeing in many cases) is surely a very positive sign for Thai society and democracy that Western media intentionally ignore - when they are critical narratives for other aspiring democracies (and the dominance of Zimbabwe in the global media comes to mind here)… Just some reflections on Kuson’s comments and choice of words/classifications.
42 Reg Varney // Jul 17, 2008 at 3:47 pm
karmablues: I am often taken aback by the lack of evenhandedness in the debates at present. I know I shouldn’t be. However, just one example. PADites use the military’s constitution, approved by referendum, to demand various things be done according to the law. But when the constitution allows changes by parliament, they object. Odd, don’t you think, how positions change for political advantage? Both sides seem to me to be equally good at manipulating the basic law for their own purposes.
43 Reg Varney // Jul 17, 2008 at 3:49 pm
kuson and sidh: so PAD is just responding to provocation, and that’s okay? If you were pro-PPP would you be arguing that the government has been to lenient in the face of considerable provocation by PAD?
44 Srithanonchai // Jul 17, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Sidh: ““uneducated gullibles” - personally, I think they are the least of Thailand’s problems. It is the ‘educated gullibles’ that is most dangerous” > That’s the nice thing with the elitist model of democracy in Thailand, which has been advertised for some time (and practiced during the coup). What if this elite is just as rotten as the abhorred “electocrats”, including their “gullible” voters? Where do we get the morally untouchable elite from that Kuson wants–import it?
45 Sidh S. // Jul 17, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Reg Varney, I’ve already confessed my “injustice” to you about DADD protest in front of PMPrem’s house last year (headed by Jakrapob, Dr Weng etal) and the 200 police injured. It is unprecedented that the security forces “did their job” and certainly a positive sign. That the generals are the ones calling for cool and calm here (in light of provocations and nationalism fervour) is certainly sign of progress (I hope that it is real, as my hope for the justice system).
Reg, we can assume that all the MPs knew the election law (regardless of who wrote it) before contesting it in Dec 2007. They knowingly broke the law expecting to get away with it as was usual. Regardless of all the MPs of the past that got away with it, its time that the rules gets enforced and let us hope that this applies to all future elections. The same goes to corrupt prime ministers and cabinet ministers. We suspect that many in the past had their hands in the cookie jar - but that does not mean that PMThaksin should not be tried, especially in light of the surfacing incriminating evidences. This is a critical juncture in Thai society and democracy and we need strong precedences, like the many we are seeing now to set it on a new path. If the momentum gets going, eventually everyone, regardless of political color, socio-economic class will be subjected to the rule of law… PPP need not provoke PAD by proposing constitution amendments to white-wash PMThaksin. If PMThaksin is certain of his innocence, fight it in court. Let the evidences be publicly revealed for society to judge if the courts “did their job”…
46 Sidh S. // Jul 17, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Srithanonchai, the elite are not “morally untouchable”. They’ve already shown that the are less “rotten” by not overstaying in power if recent history reflect their true intents. PMThaksin has publicly declared that he planned to (monopolize) Thai politics for “20 years”. In contrast, GenSonthi and PMSurayud “did their job” (you can judge whether they did well or not - most Thais I know were disappointed with their performance) for 1.5 years and stepped aside. Evidences so far suggest (but lets wait for a few more years to judge either way) that they advocate a stronger rule of law, better checks-and-balances. PAD is a group of elite, but they don’t speak for all ‘elites’. Reading Kuson’s post, I understand that the PAD leadership’s views is not necessary shared by fellow Bangkok middle-class protestors…
47 Kuson // Jul 18, 2008 at 12:59 am
Sidh, you are spot on - PAD come from many fronts, but mainly to eradicate the Thaksinism once and for all. To attain this goal, you do see many “interesting proposals” (Academically Unapproved by Srithanonchai, which is quite right according to simplistic view in the “Dummies Guide to Democracy” probably at Amazon.com. I hope people in academia do know that “Life Ain’t That Simple” ).
GUYS DO YOU HAVE BETTER SOLUTION THAN PAD?
Reg, Srithanonchai - Simple question: Do you have any solutions for Thailand? If you do believe the current “Thai Government” (I dare not say “Royal Thai Government”) was fairly elected, and have the Mandate to stay the Whole Term of Elections [please change the constitution, please bring Mr. Autocratic Thaksin back, lets give back everything we owe back to Khmer, since their ancestors (if you believe Italians are Romans) built it (oh yeah, the Thai governement can teach this to encourage Australia back to the Aborigines) but more importantly because Thaksin can use it for a vehicle for more wealth against the corrupt Hun Sen who stole from Cambodian people, etc etc. It would be very interesting to see your point of view.
Only then, we'll see whether there maybe one or two "Educated Gullibles" to import to Thailand to encourage the Thaksin return, where perhaps to "Agree to Disagree" is the best way out [since I, to you am probably not making sense and probably a jerk in your view]. “Waiting for the Courts To Decide” might be a good non-loss of face exit.
UNEDUCATED GULLIBLE TROUBLE
Sidh, in a way I think the “Uneducated Gullibles” are still the problem- they are the mass (quite right, abused government after government) who are kept uneducated and Myopic (Give me 500THB, and I’m happy) are the crowd who bring in the corrupt year after year for SO MANY DECADES. Don’t get me wrong — I love my fellow countrymen — and I’ve met so much good simple farmers and really want these group of people to at last “Do The Right Thing”; I believe education (thanks to you academics) is the only way to break this “Vicious Cycle” of transferring wrong ideals ; but I do not think it is easy, since it is Thaksin’s only source of power, and the peope who try to educate this group about what’s going on ALWAYS get thrashed by Thaksin’s henchmen- we’ve seen this so often when people try to do so.
CLARIFICATION: THAILAND PEOPLE IN GENERAL ARE NOT READY FOR DEMOCRACY, BUT UNFORTUNATELY THERE IS NO BETTER SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT
I also want to clear up something:
1. While I am Nationalistic, I am not Extreme Right ” to take the fight to the Cambodians” (quoting Reg). I think socially economically it is best for peace — tourism will pour in, and is best for both. I highly despise the “uneducated Thais” who make fun of Cambodians or Laos and will be happy to give them a good whack if I could. I hate it if other countries win soccer becuase of unfair judges (especially if it is a Thai judge), but quite proud, at least in SEA games we are the fairest Nation in the lot. And I do NOT tolerate international thieves like Thaksin and Hun Sen.
2. I am not an Elitist; However, having been educated in “Comparative Government” in Highschool (Thanks Mr. Glenn Gamble) I do have thoughts.
Here is an example: Why in the World, in Every Single Country, do we treat juveniles (persons under age 18 or so) different from Adults? This is the same basis for which I personally want to compare Thailand to.
Lets say there are 2 classes. One full of 25 year olds (First World Democracy), and another full of 13 year olds (Thailand Democracy). Each class has to respond to a bizarre vote: “Whether To Allow Sex In Class”.
A) The 25 year old adults who have been educated to the pros and cons of such behaviour (not appropriate, future problem in society of orphans, bad precedence) decide not to allow it, most more or less in some form of principle. They press charge the teacher for asking such a vote.
B) The 13 year old teenagers, the highschool football teham who have discovered the sensual experiences of such, encourage others to experiment, find more entertainment value than mathematics, decide to shout out loud to do so. Others who arn’t sure but do not want to go against the football thugs, etc. eventually decide democratically in favor of such behaviour. Only when Mr. Academic Headmaster (taa daaa) comes in, realizes what’s going on, gives the students a good whopping (however undemocratic it may seem), fires the Rectangular Head Teacher, and tries undo the situation. The 13 year olds as they are, having felt the ‘goodness’ of pleasureable experience, revolt by doing the “Dead Poets Society” look alike stand -on -table and insist their teacher back. Head Teacher calls in the parents (elitists?) and save the day.
I believe Thailand’s democratic maturity is as good as in Case B. I think what you so call “Elitists” are not elitists, but the more mature 1st World People of Case A.
So what’s the future of Thai Democracy? Simply, as in the quite bizarre case above, “I think sometimes the Juvenile Should Respect Their Headmasters,” and thus “The Uneducated Gullibles should try to listen what PAD has done to try to save Thailand”.
IMHO.
Sorry if I seem disrespectful, I’m quite a nice guy actually, and would like to entertain you guys Reg, Srithanonchai, if you happen to be in Bkk sometime. Let you guys meet the PAD at least my version
48 Srithanonchai // Jul 18, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Sidh: Now, we have to be really greatful for the coup-group to have bowed out after a while, right?
Kuson: At least, Suthichai Yoon seem to have a better solution, since he wrote a comment headlined, “PAD: The right diagnosis — but the wrong prescription” (or something to this effect). Maybe, you can ask him?
49 karmablues // Jul 19, 2008 at 2:40 pm
re# 42
PADites use the military’s constitution, approved by referendum, to demand various things be done according to the law. But when the constitution allows changes by parliament, they object. Odd, don’t you think, how positions change for political advantage?
If the people were to demand that things be done according to the constitution (i.e. let’s have rule of law), and then objects to proposed constitutional amendments which they believe would undermine the rule of law, well, i see nothing odd about that.
If the TRT/PPP mafia have broken the laws and attempts to amend the constitution so that they and Big Boss can evade the law, this I find, similarly, not odd and totally consistent behaviour for the kind of people that they are.
But when the constitution allows changes by parliament, they object.
Funny, this reminds me of what Big Boss, his Nominee and Henchmen are thinking all the time, ie. “The constitution allows for changes so why are these annoying people objecting all the time. Don’t they know we are the elected government?!? Who are they to protest against us? We’ve already conceded to a system that allows them to voice their concerns by crossing an X once every four years at the ballot box, so what more could they possibly want from us??”
Well, if the people were not allowed to voice their concerns about constitutional amendments that were being tabled in parliament I believe that would be a total authoritarian state, which is of course, the fantasy that the TRT/PPP mafia obviously have, trying to live it out and getting very angered by the people out in the streets obstructing them all the time.
50 Reg Varney // Jul 20, 2008 at 9:42 pm
karmablues: you have really made my point I think. Use the rules as they suit you and ignore them when they don’t suit.
kuson: I know plenty of PADites and consider them as misguided as you. Do I have a better solution than that offered by PAD. Yes, I do, but you won’t accept it. It involves listening to the electorate, following the law (whether it suits or not and subjecting everyone equally to the law) and working for change peacefully, through reasoned and reasonable civic action and through parliament and the ballot box.
51 kuson // Jul 21, 2008 at 4:45 am
Reg, I do not totally disagree with you - in fact, I am totally with you in principle: “It involves listening to the electorate, following the law (whether it suits or not and subjecting everyone equally to the law) and working for change peacefully, through reasoned and reasonable civic action and through parliament and the ballot box” which is everything you said!
In principle only. The same way people at trouble spots feel when thousands and thousands of kms away a group of UN diplomats talk about principle while the sufferers lay dying.
*** In practice, can you get the Thaksinites to do the same, practicing on the same principle and lawful way that constitutes a good Democracy we so agree? I think in Essence this is where we don’t agree. I don’t think it is possible to do that– and being polite do the job (unlike the impolite and fed up, misguided PADites). Do you have a solution for this, or how do you think its best done?
My point is, if peaceful reasoning cannot happen, police force is necessary. If Thaksin did his homework well, he’d have the police in his hands (oh I forgot he was a police). But if the police are not up to it, then what?
I am not citing for all out violence (like what the Thaksinites are doing very brutally in Chiang Rai against the Academic PADites) as I mentioned they are not fruitful, but this is where PADites come in— to ensure that the Police are being Lawful and Courts are carrying out the Thaksin Trials. PADites are obviously the last buffer before something you like less comes in : A coup.
Conclusion: I accept what you say practically, if and only if Thaksin complies what you’ve said. Can he? But perhaps the Courts will put him in Jail, PAD has no more political agenda, and everyone has a happy ending and everyone goes for a Red Bull and Thai corn booze!
52 Reg Varney // Jul 21, 2008 at 12:57 pm
kuson: you see, there lies the problem: you accept these suggestions/ideas in principle but not in fact.
BTW, do you only watch ASTV for your news? You do have a very skewed perception of reality, where PAD = good. Do look a bit more broadly. Perhaps read the Chang Noi column in the Nation (21 July). I suspect that there view is not a minority opinion.
53 nganadeeleg // Jul 21, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Reg: Can you answer Kuson’s question?
Reg says “It involves listening to the electorate, following the law (whether it suits or not and subjecting everyone equally to the law) and working for change peacefully, through reasoned and reasonable civic action and through parliament and the ballot box”
Kuson says “I am totally with you in principle…..In practice, can you get the Thaksinites to do the same, practicing on the same principle and lawful way that constitutes a good Democracy ….?
54 Reg Varney // Jul 21, 2008 at 3:24 pm
nganadeleleg: No need to answer this question unless kuson can get the PADites to do the same thing. He doesn’t speak for them and I certainly do not speak for any Thaksinites. So it is a dumb question, made for rhetorical purposes.
But here is one PAD response to the rule of law, when they do speak for themselves:
PAD plans campaign to oust judges
Bangkok Post, 9 July 2008
The People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) plans to gather 20,000 voters’ signatures to kick-start impeachment proceedings against two Civil Court judges for ordering the alliance to stop blocking Rama V and Phitsanulok roads during school hours. Maj-Gen Chamlong Srimuang said all five PAD leaders agreed with the move. At least 20,000 signatures would be submitted to the Senate to support the impeachment bid.
”The court’s verdict forced us to relocate our demonstration, causing difficulties, despite the fact we are here to perform our duty to the country. We caused no damage. We appeal for justice as over the past weeks we strictly complied with the court order. The main point is that the Civil Court’s order is in breach of Article 63 of the constitution,” said Maj-Gen Chamlong.
On Monday night PAD supporters retreated to their former rally site at the Makkhawan Rangsan bridge after the court ordered they must stop blocking traffic on Rama V and Phitsanulok roads from 5am to 6pm on weekdays.
Teachers and parents from Rajavinit school who had earlier obtained a court injunction against the PAD rally during school hours, on Monday asked the judges to enforce it. They said the PAD only partially opened the roads.
Noppadol Laochot, director of Wat Makutkasattiyaram school near the PAD’s rally site, said the school would not file a suit against the alliance as the school had not been affected by the rally.
Buses could pass the school and the PAD’s loudspeakers had not disturbed students, said the school director, who yesterday went to view the PAD’s gathering at Makkhawan Rangsan bridge
55 kuson // Jul 21, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Reg says: “No need to answer this question unless kuson can get the PADites to do the same thing. He doesn’t speak for them and I certainly do not speak for any Thaksinites. So it is a dumb question, made for rhetorical purposes.” And pulls up an example of PAD breaking the law.
Reg, lets put it this way: IMHO, I do not think its a dumb question, but rather, Its just a question for which you simply don’t have an answer ( and many people in this Forum probably don’t).
Don’t forget who started this out. It started with Thaksin and his self-serving policies and laws and his most valuable asset: Control of Media (Dictatorship in essence). Out of whatever interest and beginnings, PAD started to get “The Truth” out, and now vowing to uproot the whole corrupt Thaksinism (Lord of the Rings, The Republic of Mordor).
My answer: my thoughts are that PAD (unfortunately) is in the best position to do it, even though the look like vigilantes because the sheriff(s) ain’t working. And PAD is being shot down in this Forum like a “Spitfire among New Mandala’s Flakpanzers” which I do not think they deserve this.
That is why my question : “Does anyone have a better way to get Thaksin to comply to rules of Law first, in order for PAD not to exist?”
For me now that PAD have done part of their job, the Courts if they uphold their principles, should rid Thaksinism hopefully for good, and then no one has to answer this question.
56 Sidh S. // Jul 21, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Reg, it’s not a “dumb question”. Please answer it as a “Thaksinite” if you wish - we know you don’t speak for them. Let’s have some transparency here - Kuson has admitted to attending a PAD rally and listening to ASTV, I’ve admitted an “injustice” to you for not mentioning DADD’s important protest. Maybe if you were there with Jakrapob and co - or you support their actions, let’s here your reasons for it, your side of the story:
“nganadeleleg: No need to answer this question unless kuson can get the PADites to do the same thing. He doesn’t speak for them and I certainly do not speak for any Thaksinites. So it is a dumb question, made for rhetorical purposes.”
57 Sidh S. // Jul 21, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Srithanonchai#48:
“Sidh: Now, we have to be really greatful for the coup-group to have bowed out after a while, right?”
No need to feel grateful - but you can if you want…
58 Sidh S. // Jul 21, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Kuson #47:
A convincing (and entertaining) education metaphor - but I still think the main problem is with the “educated gullibles” such as your “Rectangular Head Teacher”, his gang AND his LIKE-MINDED opponents. The “Academic Headmaster” is coming down hard with the rules on the “educated gullibles”. If he/she continues this practice into the future post-”Rectangular Head Teacher”, without fear or favor, then at least half the problem is addressed.
If election fraud is severely punished and thus vote-buying, influence-peddling is curtailed - then maybe, just maybe, the context for politicians that GENUINELY RESPECTS his/her electorate and not see them as poor, unimportant clients to rip-off as practiced (to put it mildly), will arise.
The next half is a much more complex process (almost idealistic) of decentralized democracy from the ground up - where each voter, regardless of urban or rural, sees that his/her vote can effect change at a local community level (and eventually, by extension, at a provincial and national levels)… Here we also need another set of “uneducated gullibles”, the bureaucrats, to become versed in the finer points of the 1997/2007 constitutions on individual/community rights and sincere in its application.
If the PAD focus on those “educated gullibles” that manipulate and exploit the laws usually against weaker members of society, then I support them. However, if they want to curtail the democratic rights of those weaker members, then I think it is not the right way to go. As a class-conscious society, I am aware that can be quite hard. It seemed to be a challenge in the history of mature democracies - hence the rise of labour parties and, in the more extremity, socialist/communist parties.
Can Thai society find that less violent and equitable ways towards democracy? It is written in the constitution, the challenge remains on how to get there (and not to change the constitution again to serve another agenda).
59 Reg Varney // Jul 21, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Sidh: You want me to make up a story? You say: “Please answer it as a “Thaksinite” if you wish - we know you don’t speak for them.” You want me to pretend to be a Thaksinite? The point is that one can see the PADites as a very nasty bunch (a la Chang Noi in the Nation) and not be a Thaksin supporter just as one can support rule of law and election results without having to support those who win elections and who are in power.
60 Sidh S. // Jul 22, 2008 at 12:11 am
Reg, apologies for my misunderstanding, as you write like a Thaksinite. Whatever you are, please just answer Kuson’s question as best you could. It’s no longer a “dumb question” you dismiss it to be as you claim to “support the rule of law”. If you choose to be quiet and dismissive again, we can conclude that you are a Thaksinite.
61 Kuson // Jul 22, 2008 at 1:40 am
Sidh, I agree - I haven’t read all of Reg’s but he does write like a Thaksinite;
Reg (or any other persons in New Mandala), I think its ok to be a Thaksinite (if you are) — as long as you didn’t get any $$$ to write your stuff. If it were any consolation, I believed in Thaksin in the first 2-3 years- even I was fooled! He said many things sincerely [I could have sworn they looked genuine], and then you see him contradicting himself over and over. Then he redefined english term ‘Double-Standard’. I will not be surprised if a foreigner takes 10 years, a smart one 5 years. With PAD’s information, I think it becomes easier — but apparently not so simple.
It reminds me of my youth again - I was in a quarrel with my Aunt when I saw pro-wrestling for the first few times and was on the [swearing] side that these Wrestlers are Really Fighting when my Aunt said they were only acting. Its only when I grew up I could tell the difference — that no way was Hulk Hogan. It takes -not a trained eye, and in Thaksin’s case, experience in following his Trail of Lies to actually pinpoint - Ah! the most corrupt Con Artist ever!
Perhaps Changnoi is on somebody’s payroll? As long as he is not bought $$$, he’s fine. But Buyer Beware: don’t forget the rule of thumb: “Check the prices at a few shops before you buy”.
Sidh, PAD does focus on the “Educated Gullibles” and much more.
Now I’m waiting anxiously: Put Thaksin in Jail. Next step: Making sure he lives as Democratic as other inmates, no Golden Pillow for the rest of his life… (or until he really redeems himself).
62 karmablues // Jul 22, 2008 at 3:02 am
Re #57
Thanks for the example of the PAD response to rule of law which speak for themselves. I thought I’d add in some of PPP’s responses to rule of law, which also speak for themselves. And put the two lists side by side for comparison.
PAD gathers signatures to:
1. impeach 2 Civil Court judges (even if successful, other judges can continue the work of the court)
PPP gathers signatures to:
1. impeach (hoping to paralyse) the Constitutional Court
2. impeach (hoping to paralyse) Election Commission
3. impeach (hoping to paralyse) the Office of Auditor-Gener