Samak Sunthonwet: nayokratthamontri khon thi 25 (Samak Sunthonwet: the 25th Prime Minister) (2008) by Thanomsak Chirayusawat (ISBN: 9789747814514). This modest volume provides useful coverage of Samak’s life, up to his current success. It includes some interesting detail on his early life, his professional and private life, the beginning and progress of his political career, and various achievements and honours. It has some good good coverage of his personal hobbies and talents!
New Mandala readers may be interested to read the back cover blurbs by former-PM Thaksin and others.
[This post is provided by the National Library of Australia as part of our Book Zone feature. For further information on the featured publications contact Saowapha Viravong at sviravong@nla.gov.au]
32 responses so far ↓
1 Sidh S. // May 21, 2008 at 8:33 pm
No comments here?
Is it because PMSamak is already bound for merely a footnote in Thailand’s political and democratic history? An irrelevant, irritating fly that can be easily squashed against the dark wall of Thai democracy? At the end of day, he can never be his own man as he commands no respect and no one listens to him in the PPP government? PMThaksin runs the show here and poor PMSamak can only vent his frustrations at the media and through his cooking show (which is now also canceled)…
PMThaksin, impatient as usual, is now speeding the end game - as his MPs have now tabled the new draft constitution, which will white-wash him of all allegations and wrongdoings, to parliament (this may not be related, but I heard rumours that a soothsayer said it’s the opportune time for PMThaksin).
Even if the cases go to courts, the long arm of PMThaksin’s money can arrange an ending favorable to him (easily I say, we are already seeing developments in the cases that suggest that). But this is both time consuming (many years) not to mention the ruin his (and his family’s) reputation as evidences (incriminating enough for the public, but not judges in PMThaksin’s pockets) will see the light of day. He predictably chose to play a high-rolling game taking big risks to preserve his interests.
Many in NM who harboured hope for PMThaksin to spearhead a republican movement will now feel betrayed like fans of ManCity. PMThaksin is consciously putting distance between himself and any elements within his supporters dabbling with the idea. Jakrapob Penkair looks to be on his way out, as PMThaksin wants to minimize any justification for another military coup (the only threat remaining to his power - anti-Thaksinites will experience his wrath in time).
For anyone seeing PMThaksin as a ’saviour’ of Thai democracy against an oppressive network monarchy (a figment of many in NM’s imagination I say), be careful what you hope for…
Even master opportunists like PMSamak and PMBanharn are left scratching their heads… (PMChavalit is about to be fooled again it seems)
2 fall // May 21, 2008 at 11:41 pm
On a totally unrelated note… at first glance, I thought the guy was doing a Hitler salute…
3 tUM|BleR // May 22, 2008 at 2:24 am
The reason why such a book is published is probably because until recently, no one really xpected Samak to ever become PM. In his whole life he had never come close to this position until he was cosen to lead the PPP. True, he’s a lame duck PM with no real power or respect but history nonetheless will remember him as the 25th Prime Minister of Thailand.
4 Teth // May 22, 2008 at 3:41 am
“For anyone seeing PMThaksin as a ’saviour’ of Thai democracy against an oppressive network monarchy (a figment of many in NM’s imagination I say), be careful what you hope for…”
Which part is in our imagination? The “oppressive” part or the “network monarchy” part?
If its the “network monarchy” part, something is hampering your ability to see what’s right in front of you. But if its the “oppressive” part, I’d rather not debate your edition of the dictionary again.
5 Reg Varney // May 22, 2008 at 11:00 am
Sidh S: “Many in NM who harboured hope for PMThaksin to spearhead a republican movement will now feel betrayed like fans of ManCity.”
You may be missing the point. The contest between Thaksin and the palace has unleashed a most interesting debate and conflict that draws in Thaksin supporters and at least makes some of them think about the palace’s political role. That may not result in republicanism but it does appear to rattle some in the palace (and that is good).
Not sure that all ManCity fans are disappointed.
6 Sidh S. // May 22, 2008 at 2:34 pm
What about the “For any seeing PMThaksin as a ’saviour’ of Thai democracy’…” portion? Is that also part of your imagination Teth?
Today in 2008 (not 1976), which poses a bigger threat to the development of Thai democracy and civil society - this imagined “network monarchy” (and what about un-networked, critical monarchist like myself?) and PMThaksin’s moves to gain his power and money back at all costs to the country?
If he is pretty sure of his innocence, why not let the court cases run its courses? This will set great precedence for the practices of Thai democracy and society - and we, as Thai citizens, are entitled to know the facts behind these cases. Even if he meddles with the process through money and influence (as he would be expected to do), I’m sure both your imagined network monarchy and an un-networked monarchist like myself can live with. Frankly I’d prefer that PMSamak runs the country, address the pressing socio-economic problems, without these unnecessary and unstabilizing influences of the puppet-master.
We don’t need this totally unnecessary end-game. And I’ve said before, IF there’s a ‘network monarchy’ pulling the strings on Thai democracy, they’ve retired long time ago - maybe since the passage of the 1997 constitution (which ‘they’ had a hand in pushing through).
If we go by that storyline, the extreme greed and ambitions of a group of businessmen/politicians bought ‘them’ out of retirement and what did ‘they’ do? Kind, aging grandfathers can’t run a country and they don’t want to. It was quite apparent, really. What did I miss and not see?
7 Teth // May 23, 2008 at 11:27 am
What about the “For any seeing PMThaksin as a ’saviour’ of Thai democracy’…” portion? Is that also part of your imagination Teth?
I hope you are privy to my “song mai ao” stance.
Today in 2008 (not 1976), which poses a bigger threat to the development of Thai democracy and civil society - this imagined “network monarchy” (and what about un-networked, critical monarchist like myself?) and PMThaksin’s moves to gain his power and money back at all costs to the country?
They are equally undemocratic in agenda, but I was given a good comparison the other day. How would you choose between Mao and Deng?
If he is pretty sure of his innocence, why not let the court cases run its courses? This will set great precedence for the practices of Thai democracy and society - and we, as Thai citizens, are entitled to know the facts behind these cases. Even if he meddles with the process through money and influence (as he would be expected to do), I’m sure both your imagined network monarchy and an un-networked monarchist like myself can live with. Frankly I’d prefer that PMSamak runs the country, address the pressing socio-economic problems, without these unnecessary and unstabilizing influences of the puppet-master.
Yes, let the justice system run its course. In the meantime, get the generals for their corruption while in power too.
All puppet-masters should stop their puppetry.
We don’t need this totally unnecessary end-game. And I’ve said before, IF there’s a ‘network monarchy’ pulling the strings on Thai democracy, they’ve retired long time ago - maybe since the passage of the 1997 constitution (which ‘they’ had a hand in pushing through).
So you don’t deny their existence? ‘They’ did not push through the 1997 constitution, otherwise why would ‘they’ overturn it completely in 2007? Its all about convenience and their ability to remain extra-constitutional. Haven’t you gotten the memo?
If we go by that storyline, the extreme greed and ambitions of a group of businessmen/politicians bought ‘them’ out of retirement and what did ‘they’ do? Kind, aging grandfathers can’t run a country and they don’t want to. It was quite apparent, really. What did I miss and not see?
Its funny how one side can be so easily characterized with ‘extreme greed and ambition’ while the other are ‘kind, aging grandfathers’.
What do you use to support those images? Or is it just the perception in your mind?
The point I’m trying to make is that why does the Thaksin puppet master exist but not the network monarchy’s puppetry? Why is one theory so true to you but another so false? I dare say that for every ‘connection’ you see from Thaksin to Samak, the same can be said of the network monarchy. For the record, I don’t deny Thaksin’s puppetry.
Secondly, why are the old grandfathers the good side? Have you met them personally? Or is it just your view that they are the good side? Are they actually kind? Is Samak not aging?
In the end, the evidence points that both sides are equally bad. Neither have ever been truly democratic. Neither have actually given the country long term, institutional growth except for their own cults of personality. Both are myopic, both have committed human rights violation (on a barbaric scale). Both have vast sums of money at stake. Both bought the people’s hearts and minds with populist policies (with taxpayers money). Both are fairly entrenched with their respective networks.
So from here, its who is the lesser of two evils. Some (like hobby/nganadeeleg) will prefer the devil you’re familiar with. Some, like me, will prefer a Deng, though he was a dictator in a totalitarian state, he (unwittingly?) turned China towards the world.
The dream situation, though, is that Thai society itself will mature, that change will start from bottom up. Maybe an honest, capable leader will arise. Personally, I want to play a part in this attitudinal change, maybe by trying to convince a person one by one. On a more visionary scale, I see the Internet as a platform for this change to take place… We’ll see what I can do.
8 nganadeeleg // May 23, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Personally, I want to play a part in this attitudinal change, maybe by trying to convince a person one by one. On a more visionary scale, I see the Internet as a platform for this change to take place… We’ll see what I can do.
Unfortunately, the ’song mai ao’ position seems to be a minority position in these internet wars - I would rather not see any side ‘win’, but yes, I confirm that if forced to choose I would stick with the old guard, as at least I can see that change (for the better) is inevitable and is already happening slowly (I acknowledge it has been forced on them, rather than by choice).
IMO the path to change for the better is not so clear if the current main opponent is victorious.
9 Teth // May 23, 2008 at 11:09 pm
And by attitudinal change, I wish to see more critical thinking, a higher standard of proof, a lower tolerance for bullshit, the freedom to speak your mind honestly, more integrity less hypocrisy, earning respect, appreciating hard work, nonviolence, etc. To be honest, I’m rather tired of choosing the lesser of two evils.
10 Sidh S. // May 26, 2008 at 4:57 pm
And my full encouragement to you Teth (Just don’t turn into a Polpot in the process!). Your ideals are truly commendable.
To be frank, I have aged past those idealist sentiments. At the end of the day, I believe, like PMThaksin, that ANYONE can be bought. If PMThaksin throws me Ericksson’s salary for me to do good PR for him on NM (or anywhere else for that matter), I will probably take it…
Based on that, I have considered all ‘evidences’ (and projection exercises) and I, like Nganadeeleg, prefer the ‘Old Guard’ any time. Compared to the current incumbents (PMThaksin & co), they are retired, kind and aging grandfathers. Maybe if we put the Myanmese Junta at the other end of the spectrum, you might get the picture. Who is holding on to money and power at any cost to society (PAD and the pro-PPP opponents are now rallying on the streets - raising the possibility of another coup)?
I maintain that if there’s such a thing as a ‘network monarchy’ they’ve retired since the passage of the 1997 Constitution leaving in place, what ‘they’ thought were structures for a strong rule of law with the Constitutional Court’s judicial wisdom to deal with corruption and any future societal conflicts in line with other mature democracies. PMThaksin’s assets concealment case put an end to that ideal… If the judges did their job then and not cower to power and money, PMThaksin will be out for five years (2001-2006) and, by today he’d likely be back as prime minister already… (and mechanisms to deal with corruption, conflicts of interests of politicians, bureacuats - including the military just might remain intact and have a chance to mature)
PMThaksin tore the 1997 Constitution there and then (and his intents were later confirmed anyway with the manipulation of ‘independent’ agencies and institutions) long before GenSonthi and co staged a coup. Besides, the 2007 Constitution is mainly based on the 1997 one, with additions to reign in one man’s excesses - simple as that.
If GenSonthi and co or ‘network monarchist’ or whatever one percieves it to be were that ruthless, why not just govern for the next decade (to match PMThaksin’s original plan of 21 years). If PMSurayud wants to retire ASAP, then GenSonthi can just step in. They staged a coup, they can write any rules they want. Why not just set up a kangaroo court and ban TRT for 100 years? No need to wait for proper judicial processes or evidences - just convict PMThaksin of the most horrendous crimes against Thai citizens (War on Drugs, Southern Unrest etc.) followed by the firing squad if he ever steps back into the country. Or do the Putin (PMThaksin’s good friend) and send an assasin to ManCity’s stadium…
With your idealism, I don’t think you will acknowledge any of that Teth. The ’song mai oa’ position can be problematic as you clearly don’t want PMThaksin’s excesses on the one hand, but what is really on the other? In 2008, as in 1976, a return to the monarchy system was never on the cards anyway - so what is it that you also don’t want? Maybe ’song mai ao’ should just admit that they desire a republic, period - which is a position that will not aid Thai democracy in its current context. Meanwhile, the drama carries on in the streets of Bangkok, the parliament, the barracks, the palace, the internet sites regardless.
PMThaksin has played his card - and hence, another coup is in the offing. The main objective of this coup might just be to ensure that cases against PMThaksin and his partners in corruption are properly tried in court (something PMThaksin clearly does not want). If that happens, there’s a likelihood that this will be the last coup.
While if PMThaksin gets his way and is white-washed of all wrong-doings, expect this new mega-scale of corruption and conflict of interests to be the norm for Thai society of the future.
Maybe, in the futility of ’song mai oa’ in these times of high stakes and high tensions, what is your practical position Teth?
11 Teth // May 26, 2008 at 10:58 pm
To be frank, I have aged past those idealist sentiments.
But maybe you haven’t matured so much.
With your idealism, I don’t think you will acknowledge any of that Teth. The ’song mai oa’ position can be problematic as you clearly don’t want PMThaksin’s excesses on the one hand, but what is really on the other? In 2008, as in 1976, a return to the monarchy system was never on the cards anyway - so what is it that you also don’t want? Maybe ’song mai ao’ should just admit that they desire a republic, period - which is a position that will not aid Thai democracy in its current context. Meanwhile, the drama carries on in the streets of Bangkok, the parliament, the barracks, the palace, the internet sites regardless.
I don’t want a Republic, because it is unfeasible in Thailand, at least for the next 50 years. What I want is our monarchy to be like Japan’s emperor–meek, powerless, and under the power of elected politicians, no matter how evil.
The Old Guard is hardly angelic, Sidh. If you think that power corrupts, why would it not corrupt these people? “Their” 1997 constitution? I laugh, because you haven’t told me how “they” gave us that constitution. Maybe like how Rama VII “gave” us the first constitution? You have been unable to give me a reason or evidence of why the network monarchy doesn’t exist.
I maintain that if there’s such a thing as a ‘network monarchy’ they’ve retired since the passage of the 1997 Constitution leaving in place, what ‘they’ thought were structures for a strong rule of law with the Constitutional Court’s judicial wisdom to deal with corruption and any future societal conflicts in line with other mature democracies. PMThaksin’s assets concealment case put an end to that ideal… If the judges did their job then and not cower to power and money, PMThaksin will be out for five years (2001-2006) and, by today he’d likely be back as prime minister already… (and mechanisms to deal with corruption, conflicts of interests of politicians, bureacuats - including the military just might remain intact and have a chance to mature)
They could’ve put these structures up since the days of military rule. But did they do that?
In fact, this “network” has been famous for tearing these structures down coup by coup. In fact, refer to the early 1990s and see what HMK has to say about the critics of Suchinda’s constitution, which, startlingly, bears many similarities to the 2008 constitution.
Besides, the 2007 Constitution is mainly based on the 1997 one, with additions to reign in one man’s excesses - simple as that.
No, its not simple as that.
Its to entrench and empower “them”, because they don’t trust electoral politics, but its not simple as that either.
If it were about being institutional, they should know that one Constitution does not turn anything institutional overnight. They’ve had 60 years and what have they done except building up one institution?
If GenSonthi and co or ‘network monarchist’ or whatever one percieves it to be were that ruthless, why not just govern for the next decade (to match PMThaksin’s original plan of 21 years). If PMSurayud wants to retire ASAP, then GenSonthi can just step in. They staged a coup, they can write any rules they want. Why not just set up a kangaroo court and ban TRT for 100 years? No need to wait for proper judicial processes or evidences - just convict PMThaksin of the most horrendous crimes against Thai citizens (War on Drugs, Southern Unrest etc.) followed by the firing squad if he ever steps back into the country. Or do the Putin (PMThaksin’s good friend) and send an assasin to ManCity’s stadium…
If the kind, benevolent, loving, caring, peaceful, merciful, endearing, and not to mention senile bunch really wanted a strong democracy, they could’ve used their clout for the past 60 years. If they wanted rule of law, people in their own ranks would have to be punished (instead, there are pardons in place for the perpetrators of 6 Oct…and you wonder why Samak can’t be punished). If they were por pieng why do they seem to love their billion baht stocks, sports cars, and massive amounts of land? If they actually did “give” us the 1997 constitution, why did they not just amend it to exclude Thaksin rather than give power to themselves.
I’ll tell you why. They only care for themselves. They will not go out of their way to convict Thaksin because they can live with him! They can tolerate him (as they have tolerated military dictators and their tang daeng and lack of any rule of law) as long as he is distinctly subordinate to them. But if they did go out of their way to do what you listed, it would be a bigger PR disaster than the coup already was. Plus, it wouldn’t allow Sidh to justify their actions.
Basically, Sidh, what we have here is that every good thing that has happened to our country (1997 constitution, standing up against Thaksin) has been thanks to the old geezers. But when it comes to them being just as evil as Thaksin, its “They don’t exist.” Please give me a break. You say you’ve grown up and abandoned youthful ideals, but its clear you still believe in a childlike world of pure good versus pure evil that doesn’t actually exist. Hell, you’re already gathering arguments to preemptively support another “good” coup.
Maybe, in the futility of ’song mai oa’ in these times of high stakes and high tensions, what is your practical position Teth?
I have already shared you my position, that change cannot come from any of the senile, self serving elite. Thai people’s attitudes MUST change from the bottom up. If anti-Thaksin campaigners continue to bribe traffic police (as most urban Thais, anti-Thaksin or not do) how can you expect the likes of Thaksin to be gone from office?
The practical position is that we need to assault the very rotten core of Thai society and expose it for what it is, a backwards, hypocritical, and feudal society that it is. If anything, it is the cause for all this trouble.
12 Sidh S. // May 27, 2008 at 5:52 pm
With that last paragraph, you do sound like Polpot Teth. It implies a rather radical, violent ‘impractical’ position. You must outline your manifesto Teth - how do we get to your utopia?
Another problem with your position is that it has the benefit of hindsight. It is assuming that the Siamese elites of 60 years ago should have the foresight to see what the consequences of their decisions will be in 2008. I will just say that it is a safe bet that in 60 years the future generations reading these blogs will really be amused by our senile, irrelevant exchanges!
As I have implied in the last comment (that everyone has a price), it is commonsense that any person or institution will have ’self-preservation’ as a fundamental objective. It is only human nature. A good, objective measurement of a person’s or an institution’s ‘altruism’ is how they contributed (or not) to the ‘greater good’ - which is never easy to define.
You also see these various ‘institutions’ as monolithic and incapable of change and adaptation. I beg to differ and evidence abound that the monarchy, the military, the parliament, the bureaucracy, businessmen, Thai society in 1932, 1976, 1992, 2006 have significantly evolved (and evolved together). There are multiple agencies, factors, events (internal, external, inbetween) influencing the highly complex course of contemporary Thai society and it is rather simplistic to reduce them the way many in NM like to. It may be useful to teach college freshmen courses, but it is highly misleading.
In your comment about bribing traffic police, you seem to agree that the ‘rule of law’ is critical in this change towards the ‘greater good’. I see it as fundamental - and it is embedded in the 1997 Constitution, which (and this might surprise you) also does not trust electoral politics, elected politicians, bureaucrats, the military - hence the ‘independent’ bodies, a more robust judiciary and the encouragement of civic participation in politics, which sadly has been underused or just ignored by politicians and bureaucrats as it threatens their power. And also partially because the 1997 Constitution has so far not been successful in generating grassroot activism, the onus are on the independent agencies and judiciary branch to be both free from interference and be bold and unbiased in the use of their significant new powers (and HMK did constantly encourage the judges appointed to be bold and do what is right - but you did not and refuse to hear that Teth - so there’s no ‘evidence’!).
Another problematic view is that 1976 seems to be a watershed for you - for goodness sakes Teth, you were a baby at most, you will never fully comprehend those times and places. You lived through 1992, 1997, War on Drugs, Krue-sae, Takbai - what is your take on those? I understand from some past comments that you consider yourself a ‘good Buddhist’ - please focus on the here and now…
And finally, because you live in a 1976 that you didn’t exist in, you are blind to the here and now. Again, evidences abound that the most powerful and influential person in Thailand 2001-present is (even during the coup government, he was omnipresent) … Guess who Teth? And why, I’d be very interested to know…
I’ll give you another clue, in the past 10 years there are people who try to adhere to the written law and there are others, formally in power most of that time and whose task is to uphold the law, but who instead blatantly either abused and ignore it.
Did you live through those 10 years Teth - it is rather enough time for those formally in power to reform society and build institutions according to the roadmap defined in the 1997 Constitution…
13 jonfernquest // May 27, 2008 at 9:40 pm
“No comments here? Is it because PMSamak is already bound for merely a footnote in Thailand’s political and democratic history?”
No, no comments from me because i bought the book. It was only 160 baht. Looks interesting but it takes me a long time to read Thai.
I hope Samak hangs tough and stays in there. Because he’s been around for a long time and is considered as someone with impeccable “Royalist” ceredentials he could provide stability and a good mediating influence.
I also hope he would get some work done, like pass a law or two, make sure that none of those sneaky school fees slip through.
Even the argument that school fees are unavoidable for the best public schools is untenable. Poor kids should have just as equal access to the best public schools too.
One hears way too little from the media about the education and schools of poor people.
14 Teth // May 28, 2008 at 1:47 am
With that last paragraph, you do sound like Polpot Teth. It implies a rather radical, violent ‘impractical’ position. You must outline your manifesto Teth - how do we get to your utopia?
The key difference is that I don’t desire to kill or brainwash or become what my opposition is. But carry on with your Polpot references.
Alternatively, how do we get to your utopia, Sidh? Pray that Thaksin (and all politicians, bureaucrats, police, judges, military officers, citizens) respect the rule of law overnight? Or that a law (eg a charter) will suddenly bestow respect for the rule of law upon a people who have no respect for the rule of law?
All that I’m saying is that I’m sick and tired of the PAD’s hidden agendas, the Government’s incompetency, the media’s biases and failures to do their job, the rotten criminal justice system, the backward educational system, and us Thais who continue to preach but never practice what we preach. So instead of continuing to preach (rather ineffectively, I must add), Sidh, how can we change Thai society? Instead of mourning the 1997 constitution’s inability to create grassroots political change, why don’t we the People do it?
Attitudinal change and practicing what you preach is what we need.
Another problematic view is that 1976 seems to be a watershed for you - for goodness sakes Teth, you were a baby at most, you will never fully comprehend those times and places. You lived through 1992, 1997, War on Drugs, Krue-sae, Takbai - what is your take on those? I understand from some past comments that you consider yourself a ‘good Buddhist’ - please focus on the here and now…
You sound like Samak talking to that female reporter with his very brash accent. “Were you born yet?” “How old are you?”
I still await you to offer something substantial with regards to evidence, but that argument was long ago. Even then, you have again failed to understand my point. I am not saying the monarchy is evil, but I am attacking your version of the “benevolent, kind, all-knowingly good” bunch of white haired (or hairless) men. In fact, you denied its existence. That you now move towards a less emetic view was exactly my goal (all your rubbish about agencies and factors was what I wanted to hear).
I am not a good Buddhist nor did I ever claim to be one. I simply take pleasure in pointing out Thai people’s contradictions and hypocrisy.
So, Sidh, how old are you anyways? Still have some energy left to change some things?
15 Sidh S. // May 28, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Evidences will flow like water from a broken Three Gorges Dam, Teth, if the cases against PMThaksin & co are tried by the courts. That will be another watershed in Thai society’s fight against corruption (the first was one of PMChavalit’s ministers was convicted for corruption, MajGen.Sanan’s conviction for assets concealment was also very important as he was literally the most powerful politician at the time) and route to a respect for the written rule of law.
You keep asking everyone for ‘evidences’! What about your incriminating evidences, Teth? Do let us know when you really have substantial stuff. If you feel that it is that strong, file a case in court. If you can’t do any of that, stop asking the same of others - many of whom never demanded ‘evidences’ from you. First and foremost, I understand NM’s blog is a place for opinions of varying subtances and quality - it is not an serious academic refereed journal nor a court of law…
On change, I’ve already stated, Teth, that I have long aged past those idealistic late teens to mid-20s. I laugh when I go back to read what I wrote then. I guarantee you will have many amusing hours reading what you write now in, say, 10 years time. Call me for a free beer if you don’t.
On my age, I’ve been walking for a few years in 1976 and have absolutely no political memories then. I begun to follow politics in the latter years of PMPrem’s premiership. My first passionate debates on politics with friends and family was after the 1991 GenSujinda’s coup against PMChatchai. 1992 Black May was the first deeply painful, heartbreak. 1997 passage of the constitution was heartstopping (felt like the moment when Somluck Kamsing won the country’s first gold medal in 1996). The first cabinet minister tried for corruption and MajGen.Sanan’s five-year ban gave me great hope until PMThaksin’s got off for an ‘honest mistake’… Then War on Drugs, Krue-sae and Takbai - for me some of the worse nightmares of Thai state abuse of power in living memory… 1973 and 1976 was no doubt very sad - but, for me, there’s a lot of difference between reading things from history books and living through those events. Almost everyone in the world will remember where they were when they heard of the 9/11. It is never the same for people who are too young or not born yet. I’m not putting you down like PMSamak did - just stating what is rather common.
So what is your lived memory of Thai politics, Teth? After giving a short synopsis of mine, I think I am entitled to hear yours? (Frankly, I won’t mind if you say that you remember 1976 as if you were there in the events and is able to give first-person evidences! As long as you also come clean)
16 Sidh S. // May 28, 2008 at 7:20 pm
I totally agree jonfernquest. Education is critical for the country’s future - and the measure of any government’s foresight.
I had the same wish, but it looks like wishful thinking now and PMSamak will never be ‘his own man’ nor get to run the country in the way he wants to. Like Ericksson, he looks to be on his way out of PMThaksin’s good books… It is only the fate of ‘nominees’…
17 Teth // May 28, 2008 at 10:31 pm
So unless these cases are taken to court, evidence will not flow magically? Non sequitur, unless, of course, the judge is Moses with his staff and a desert rock.
Again, we will magically respect the rule of law when a junta unlawfully takes power, selectively prosecutes an individual, and then absolves itself of any wrongdoing? I agree that Thaksin should be tried and taken to court, but so should Saphrang, Sondhi, and Surayud.
Keep up the faith with regards to your “evidence flowing like the waters”. I have given my fair share of evidence and arguments in these various debates. Use your search function.
Oh, and the fact that you think you never demanded evidence from me says it all, really, about your standard of proof.
On change, I’ve already stated, Teth, that I have long aged past those idealistic late teens to mid-20s. I laugh when I go back to read what I wrote then. I guarantee you will have many amusing hours reading what you write now in, say, 10 years time. Call me for a free beer if you don’t.
You haven’t got a clue, do you?
Call me for a reciprocal free beer after you’ve given an interview to a “lady from far away” asking her “How old are you? Were you born yet?”
The older you are, the sadder your own little tirades seem. No wonder you deleted your blog, as it probably seemed ridiculous even after less than one year. So much for the calm, composed, mature wisdom that comes with age. Age really is just a number! Especially in your case where it seems to not correspond with intelligence, maturity, wisdom, or detachment at all…
And by the way, you really should keep a tab on your blood pressure. Trust me, I’m an angry old git, too.
18 Teth // May 28, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Jon,
As critical as education is for the country’s betterment, the people to propose it as a solution seem to forget that education occurs lifelong. They focus on schools, but I think the focus should be on educating people, changing their perspective, maturing their attitudes at every age. Of course, suggesting this position sounds patronizing, but students can teach their teachers as much as their teachers teach them, so I am in no way suggesting “we” are better or that should we patronize anybody. Instead, we have been given good ideas that should be shared and considered.
19 jonfernquest // May 29, 2008 at 4:09 am
Sidh: “I had the same wish, but it looks like wishful thinking now and PMSamak will never be ‘his own man’ nor get to run the country in the way he wants to.”
Well, I hope he does, anyway.
Teth: “…the people to propose it as a solution seem to forget that education occurs lifelong…students can teach their teachers as much as their teachers teach them,”
I agree with you. My wife who never got beyond junior high school, certainly learned to hate education early on, when her teacher dragged her out in front of the class and humiliated her, cutting her hair in front of the class. I’m the exact opposite. You couldn’t drag me out of the bookstore. People learn to either love education or hate it very early in life.
20 Sidh S. // May 29, 2008 at 1:35 pm
So what is your lived memory of Thai politics, Teth? I am waiting for your short synopsis…
I think patience is a virtue here… I look forward to 2018 to see who will buy the beers!
I’ve always followed your posts when I can Teth. You give quality opinions, but not evidences - what I can say of most NM posts anyway. At the end of day, we are describing events that we are not directly involved with and should and could not, like politicians, demand receipts for corruption!
And no, I never deleted my blogs (nor have the time to go to reread any of it). Has my past comments been deleted?! (censorship in NM??? I hope not)
“… Especially in your case where it seems to not correspond with intelligence, maturity, wisdom, or detachment at all…”
As a designer, I take that as a compliment Teth. Gotta be a child at heart to get the creative juices flowing…
21 Sidh S. // May 29, 2008 at 1:47 pm
jonfernquest, it is an amazingly difficult task for PMSamak and he will need all his skills and experience. He is aware that the actions of hardcore Thaksin loyalists (reflecting the puppet master’s impatience) pushing through (mainly self-serving) constitution change will most likely shorten his term - and wants to buy time with a referendum (which, again, will be expensive for PMThaksin - not only the taxpayers).
My hope is that the politicians come to their senses and totally open the process of constitutional amendment to broader societal involvement and debate - as it should be…
22 jonfernquest // May 29, 2008 at 11:09 pm
“My hope is that the politicians come to their senses and totally open the process of constitutional amendment to broader societal involvement and debate - as it should be…”
Yeah, that sounds good. The trouble is, I would gather that the much vaunted poor rural electorate really has no really idea of what debate actually is, not that it’s their fault. Didn’t all the “intellectuals” sort of guide them in public hearings for the 1997 People’s constitution? Would this really be possible now?
The street fight between rural motorcycle gangs that Thai politics seems to be degenerating into is pretty disturbing. Things are a lot more chaotic and less clear cut than they were back in 1992. Another coup isn’t acceptable, but I can see how a lot of people don’t find Thaksin acceptable either, given his aggressive approach, and the way he moulded government policy to make a mint off his mobile phone concessions (See Ukrist Pathmanand and Chris Baker, Hello and goodbye to the mobile phone, in Thai Capital after the 1997 Crisis, 2008), and the belief that many have that he’ll make a comeback and do it all over again. That’s why I think that Samak serving out a full term, followed by of course, hopefully Abhisit, the highest international caliber leader, to lead Thailand peacefully with dignity (not street fight) into prosperity, is the best path, but another coup is looking more and more likely, I guess, ugh.
23 Teth // May 30, 2008 at 1:06 am
“My hope is that the politicians come to their senses and totally open the process of constitutional amendment to broader societal involvement and debate - as it should be…”
This sums up what I find most disagreeable with our society. We “hope” politicians will come to their sense but the truth is that people from all walks of life, our middle class, our elite, need to starting doing rather than hoping.
There is a reason politics is also known as public service: someone has to sacrifice their intentions for the greater good, and no one, not one of those protesting on the streets or crying foul on the newspapers seem to be able to do that. We have no Aung San Suu Kyi, basically.
I recently discussed this issue with another Thai whom I respect. I told him mentioned how many Thais bemoaning the lack of transparency and the rampant corruption who once pulled over by a cop, will pay the bribe. I suggested that we practice what we preach, but even he told me that one can’t survive without being corrupt in our country. Its the system that forces us all to be corrupt in order to survive.
I didn’t tell him this, but I begged to differ. It is not impossible to practice what you preach, but it is certainly difficult. The fact that normal, regular Thais are unwilling to make even that little sacrifice has implications on the elite. What will you expect of powerful, megalomaniac, “elite” politicians/bureaucrats/soldiers/businessmen? (Even the October generation has apparently abandoned their idealism!) Ours is a country that does not reward honesty, hard work, and integrity. We admire cunning, relativism, and compromise. So unless we change this attitude how will we ever get a good, efficient government?
Maybe you can organize a national hoping day, Sidh. In the meantime we will continue to get the politicians we deserve.
24 Sidh S. // May 30, 2008 at 6:03 pm
“The trouble is, I would gather that the much vaunted poor rural electorate really has no really idea of what debate actually is, not that it’s their fault. Didn’t all the “intellectuals” sort of guide them in public hearings for the 1997 People’s constitution?”
A highly valid point jonfernquest - maybe this explains the ‘we already represent them, no need to ask them attitude’ amongst PPP MPs. According to them, the Democrats can do the Bangkok middle-class’ bidding.
However, if we are to avoid the street fight followed by coup scenario you outlined, opening up the constitution modification process is one of the few ways. It must be done with ’sincerity’ though - which is increasingly difficult in an atmosphere where no one seems to trust anyone anymore. It has to be concurrently a participatory and educative process for Thais of all walks of life. It needs lots of time and patience…
Otherwise, just don’t change the constitution. Let PMSamak and the PPP government do the best job they could for the rest of their term and face another election. If PMThaksin truly believe in his innocence, or that he can manipulate the court process anyway, or simply decides to be ’sincere’ to the country, just let the alleged corruption cases be deliberated in the courts of law. Sacrifice himself and set a new precedent where a former PM is convicted for the first time in Thai political/judicial history. Follow in the footsteps of South Korea where a former president as been jailed. With that precedent, there’s a greater possibility that cases against politician, bureucrat, businessmen, high-ranking soldiers can be tried…
Society can, then, just move closer to Teth’s ideal. I think we need that evolution and, at this point, it is up to PMThaksin really. He can just whisper into Newin’s and Chai Chidchob’s ears and say “enough boys, you’ve more than proven your loyalty. I will not use electoral politics to whitewash my wrongdoings and will fight the cases (transparently it is hoped) in the courts”… “why don’t you work hard for the people and PMSamak… don’t corrupt too much - 25% of project costs is too much - let’s practice some ’sufficiency’ with 5%”…
If only…
25 Teth // May 30, 2008 at 11:42 pm
I see your national hoping project is coming along nicely, Sidh.
When you’re ready to try and change yourself and things around you, give me a call. Otherwise, continue to write that piece of fiction, because what are the chances that PM Thaksin is willing to change if common Thais aren’t?
26 jonfernquest // May 31, 2008 at 5:14 am
Sidh: “Let PMSamak and the PPP government do the best job they could for the rest of their term and face another election.”
Yes, a cooling off period is in order, to stop the escalation of the conflict.
Sidh: “…it is up to PMThaksin really…”
Since Thaksin currently has the advantage, he might be able to concede something (a “concession” (sorry)) to end the dispute.
But can Chamlong Srimuang and Sondhi Limtangkul, who seem rather self-righteously and scarily bent on forcing a coup, really be stopped by a concession?
Some say the Ample Rich case is pretty solid and that the PPP side is going to do everything in its power to unfreeze those 8 billion in assets.
Article 297 was like a guaranteed street fight with the guilt of one party official implicating the whole party.
In short, it’s a mess and the economy continues to suffer, and it’s hard to see how this mess could be resolved amicably with a compromise from both sides, except of course, by His Majesty the King.
If article 297 was eliminated and Thaksin paid a penalty for his Ample Rich dealings, and Samak served out his term?
27 Sidh S. // May 31, 2008 at 8:21 pm
“If article 297 was eliminated and Thaksin paid a penalty for his Ample Rich dealings, and Samak served out his term?”
Sounds good jonfernquest, I’d take that compromise (my “national hoping project” according to Teth!) and hope TycoonSondhi, MajGenChamlong and PMThaksin does too… then “fiction” might just become a reality!
And it just might, I was pretty surprise to see PMThaksin wai PMPrem at GenAnupong’s mother’s funeral followed by a seemingly amicable 5 minutes talk… (and it may not be merely coincidence with the resignation of Jakrapob)
I am still waiting for your lived memory of Thai politics, Teth. As a common Thai to another common Thai, let’s be transparent and honest with our agendas (we might just start the small ball of change rolling!). Practice what you preach if you really value “honesty, hard work, and integrity”…
In my past two and a half decades of lived memory (minus the fun fun-filled childhood days, ofcourse), I have observed change and evolution in Thai society - from what you are saying, it seems that you haven’t seen any??? Be a man (or woman? it doesn’t matter) and let’s hear your side of the story, Teth…
28 Sidh S. // May 31, 2008 at 9:32 pm
On PMThaksin’s meeting with PMPrem, a contrasting ‘tales of two newspapers”:
http://www.thairath.co.th/news.php?section=politics03&content=91790 :
“… และเหนืออื่นใด กับภาพข่าวที่ปรากฏบนหน้าหนึ่งหนังสือ พิมพ์แทบทุกฉบับ พ.ต.ท.ทักษิณ ชินวัตร อดีตนายกรัฐมนตรี ได้ยกมือไหว้ “ป๋าเปรม” พล.อ.เปรม ติณสูลานนท์ ประธานองคมนตรีและรัฐบุรุษ ที่ยิ้มยกมือรับไหว้…”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/05/31/headlines/headlines_30074449.php
“…He greeted Prem with a wai. Prem simply stood still with his face grim and listened to Thaksin. The only words that Prem said to Thaksin were: “Maybe later.”"
29 Teth // Jun 1, 2008 at 9:41 am
I never challenged you to reveal your life story. On the contrary, you must have not have heard of mine, and how, growing up as a royalist, the pieces of the puzzle only began to fit once I had changed my basic assumption.
On the other hand, equating your challenge to me as a challenge to “practice what I preach” is rather ridiculous. I ever only asked how old you were. Yet here we are, you demanding something (rather off topic and besides the point) that Prime Minister Samak would probably demand as well. In all this, the point itself has been lost.
This is all very characteristically Sidh. I applaud your obduracy in these arguments. Obduracy, as in: “The Amazonian tribe refused to learn numeracy because of cultural obduracy.”
And if you still cannot figure out my agenda after me having clearly laid it out so many times before, I don’t know how else to say it. As for your own agenda, the sentimental life story hasn’t exactly given us a clear picture either, so if you still insist my agenda is murky, then we are in the same boat. But alas, I have always been clear.
As for the evolution of Thai society, it has usually been the result of the ebb and flow of globalization and nothing systematic or forward-looking. The systematic attempts to improve our political culture have failed, no thanks to the old guard nor the new. Society cannot be accurately viewed as a monolith (or straw men as you have constructed), but our majorities and averages have continued to be reactionary and in a real need for change.
30 Sidh S. // Jun 2, 2008 at 3:47 pm
So much for transparency, “honesty” and “integrity” Teth. All I asked was for a few hundred words short synopsis. I am interested as you write about 1976 as if you were there in person, experiencing incriminating “evidences” (while blind to recent state abuses)… Maybe, in the future, you should refrain from branding people hypocrits so easily. Like demanding good Buddhist practice, then saying “I am not a good Buddhist nor did I ever claim to be one” and taking pleasure from picking on fellow Thais whose English skills isn’t as good as yours and/or less intellectual than you are. You demand “integrity”, then please practice it… Otherwise, at the end of the day, you are just one of us common Thais, Teth.
31 Teth // Jun 3, 2008 at 1:53 am
Never did I promise any disclosure, because, quite frankly, it is irrelevant and will be used as irrelevant ammunition as you always do, Sidh. It is not a case of honesty or integrity. I did not swindle, trick, or lie to anyone. You are demanding an invasion into my private life that I am not willing to disclose except that I was born and raised as a regular royalist and have since seen the light. So stop being so demanding when you have right to.
I write about 1976 just like you write about the drug war. We were both not “there” in space AND time to see drug dealers being shot. We can only observe through the lenses of people who have passed their experience and information on to us.
Also, when have I been blind to recent state abuses? On the contrary, I condemn both Thaksin and the palace. Please don’t be blind, deaf, or dumb with regards to this. I don’t need to repeat myself anymore, neither should you be repeating your groundless, mindless accusations.
I have never claimed to be superior. In fact, I am flawed, as we all are. However, I am able to criticize myself and receive valid criticism (not blind ad hominem). And change. Indeed, I never claimed to be a good Buddhist, nor did I ever claim to be a member of any religion. I merely pointed out the inherent hypocrisy of people who protect “Nation, Religion, King” blindly.
I have integrety in what I preach. My actions are irrelevant in this forum because you cannot observe what I do, you can only judge based on what I say and I can lie to prove my point, but I won’t. I have criticized myself before, admitted my errors when I was in error, and so forth. But as usual, Sidh, you have managed to sidetrack the issue and go straight to the mudslinging. Are you able to face up to what I have repeatedly tried to say before your subsequent side-tracks? Or will you just brush it aside without giving it consideration, being afraid of what you mind find?
So, in the end, what is my hypocrisy? I have never asked you to reveal your life story. I have never asked you to be a good Buddhist. And as I have said, my “story” (or yours for that matter) is irrelevant to our discussion, which is the main reason I chose not to reveal it. But you still manage to sidetrack us and assault my “integrity” rather than my argument, so now is my turn to respond in good faith. Sidh, you are a hard-headed and sometimes arrogant character. When you argue, you have the ability to sidetrack opponents and mire the actual arguments and evidence in obscurity. You simply ignore and discard arguments you cannot argue against and focus on irrelevant ones that you can. Will we ever reach a conclusion? Have any of the actual arguments developed and matured? Have we looked at any new arguments, any new evidence? Any nuance added?
To answer all these questions, no. I end up shouting the same things while you end up dressing something else as an argument. So goodbye, Sidh, and best of luck. Hope you will leave your state of denial soon, because you cannot serve two masters. Holding the views you hold are not wrong, but holding it and claiming them to be something else is.
32 Sidh S. // Jun 3, 2008 at 1:56 pm
I am not asking about your “private life” or “life story” Teth - but merely your “lived memory of Thai politics”. You are protesting the question without reading it carefully! I am certain you are more than capable to differentiate between the two…
And it is highly relevant, as we are still discussing contemporary Thai politics amongst other issues (and not ‘Teth’s personal life’ as misunderstood - unless, one day, you become a major player ofcourse!).
And finally, some humble admissions from you Teth as another common Thai like the rest of us. A well-meaning advice which you probably won’t take, if you’d like to change Thai society “one person at a time” as you mentioned - first, learn to respect your fellow Thais and their views. If this:
“I simply take pleasure in pointing out Thai people’s contradictions and hypocrisy”
sums up your attitude, then you will not “developed and matured” any arguments… You are doing a lot of preaching Teth (preaching things we’ll never know you practice as you say) - why don’t you start listening and reading carefully for a change. You can start with my original question - and not your misreading of it. Ofcourse, it is still your full right not to (as I expect you to do)…
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